Pastoral breeds - working or show strain?

Its a generalisation that is commonly propagated. When the breed was recognised the first show collies were all ISDS collies and the breed has been developed from them so why would they not retain some of the working instincts they had then? Quiet a number of the handlers came from obedience and other discipines to the show ring and they still retain an interest in sheepdog trials, obedience, working trials and all the other events BC's take part in. Meet up with a BC from show lines out of the ring on the loose circling and working its people and you would see that they still retain the basic collie instincts which is why they need just as much training and stimulation as any other collie.
I have both farm bred and KC registered (I presume thats what you mean by show bred) and they are equally bright and rewarding.
I love them all

Thanks for your reply Gill, it is nice to hear what KC collies are like from someone who really knows As I have said, I really like the big coated, flashy looking collies you see in the show ring and if I can find one which also has working ability then I would be more than happy to have a pup from that breeder in the future.

Thanks for your comments.

the first show collies were all ISDS collies and the breed has been developed from them so why would they not retain some of the working instincts they had then?

Not entirely correct Some of the first show BC's were ISDS collies & lots of others were bred from ISDS dogs by non ISDS members & were therefore not eligible for ISDS registration, but were bred for Obedience/WT

The dogs all come from ISDS dogs(of course)even the Australian/NZ dogs-but the ISDS dogs these came from were exported in the 1920's pre eye testing days & of course their gene pool was quite concentrated & in fact included some Kelpie blood(a fact the Australian/NZ fans tend to forget/ignore)

The KC dogs pre show acceptance did not need to be eye tested to be registered(compulsory of course for over 20 years for ISDS dogs)& dogs/bitches are not precluded from having their subsequent puppies registered with the KC if the produce affected off spring.(again failure producers were effectively removed from the gene pool in ISDS dogs)The DNA CEA test of course has changed thing alot but there is a very well known carrier from the KC dogs who was used at stud pre DNA testing & he was used a lot !

There are lots of "typy"ISDS dogs(Ben 220939 for one)tue they don't have the very heavy bone & massive coats of the show dogs, but they can be flashy in looks & are bred to work

LOL I have been around ISDS dogs for a very long time & my Multi Sheep Trial winning dog was also a Ch Show Breed winner(although one of the judges told his steward he could tell my boy was by their Aussie Import which of course he wasn't)My current puppy is the total opposite to the fashionable show dogs Smooth coated & lighter boned but a bl**dy good worker(stock)his obedience skills are still being learnt !

Ok so they didnt all come down from ISDS stock then???? LOL of course they did. I made the mistake of over simplyfying it. Eye tests have nothing to do with the question really but that has now been sorted with the DNA tests or should have been. I know you prefer ISDS registered Dyane but even you would say that it's a generalisation that KC reg dogs have no brain, Blue is a prime example that that just isn't true.
Iwasnt saying one was better than the other they aren't its just personal choice
The only Full Champion in the breed in this country was Dual registered

Originally Posted by JoedeeUK

There are lots of "typy"ISDS dogs(Ben 220939 for one)tue they don't have the very heavy bone & massive coats of the show dogs, but they can be flashy in looks & are bred to work

Thanks for your input Joedee - I am fairly new to collies, so still learning.

I do love Derek Scrimgeour's Ben. I also very much like the look of Michael Longton's Monty (257223) but they had no pups when I was looking. Thomas Longton's Tweed was a fabulously glam looking dog and my own pup has lines back to Longton's Supreme Champion Bess. I have seen loads of really great looking dogs on the trials field too so wasn't saying there weren't some gorgeous looking ISDS dogs. I just suppose that KC reg are more like a "blue print", so you know what you are getting looks wise? So was just interested to know what they were like work wise.

Are there many dual bred collies?

Would love to see some pics of your ISDS dogs Joedee, past and present.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by willowish

Iwasnt saying one was better than the other they aren't its just personal choice
The only Full Champion in the breed in this country was Dual registered

Which dog was that please Willowish, so I can have a look on the net.

I didn't intend this topic to debate whether one type was better than the other, so hope it doesn't!

Hi it was Ch Locheil Look North

I must get my Glen dog's photos scanned onto to CD He was around long before digital camera's sadly.

LOL I had to laugh when a certain Ch Sh judge had him 3rd in the line up for Best Dog & came to me afterwards & told me if he had moved with his head up he would have had Best Dog & that he was one of the best son's of a certain NZ import he had ever seen ! Glen was of course pure ISDS breeding & line bred to Bosworth Coon, he never moved with his head up in the ring as he had way too much work drive. The NZ champion had the Australian BC/Kelpie bloodlines.

I didn't realise my puppy has some Longton(TW)lines behind him & Dryden Joe(the same as my Giff dog)

Have you looked at the Anadune website You can join for free & there are l,000s of dogs pedigrees & they will list your dog(s)as well I was surprised to find my three late boys on there I'm in the process of getting their full pedigrees etc on there.

The first dog I sent to Germany in on there German Ch, German Sieger, European Ch etc Tansterne Fun Sch H III, IPO Not bad for a £25 dog ! I'll also be sending them a photo & funn titles for him. His details are on Petra's(his owner)site under dogs

I agree Anadune is a wonderful site to kill time on researching pedigrees. Dyane totally O/T are you at LKA on Friday?