Originally Posted by
Gnasher
Mattie - we are just going round and round in circles, but I just want to say one thing - I would NEVER EVER EVER advocate anyone use an e collar on their dog without trying "positive" methods first. I don't know of many dogs who do not respond well to treat training - most dogs live for their stomachs, but wolf crosses do not on the whole.
Positive training isn't just using treats, not all dogs will work for food and if you have recently fed your dog few will work for them, they will work before food time.
As owners it is up to us to find out what our dogs will work for, I don't use treats often but do start a dog with treats first. The treats also matter, some dogs will work for their kibble, I have never had one that does, mine have all needed a higher reward.
Rewards can be anything, treats, praise a game, the reward has to be seen as a reward by the dog and not by us because often our idea of a reward is not the dog's.
One of the first questions I ask a trainer is how they reward a dog, if they only use treats I walk away, they don't understand positive training. With Dolly her reward is for me to throw a ball for her to fetch, Cyril loves a short game of tuggy.
One dog I fostered was a Maltese/JRT, he had the Maltese coat, other fosterers had pinned him down to groom him and just used a slicker which must have really hurt him. He only had to see a brush and he would react. I found out he loved hotdogs so I cut one in half then sliced it thinly, divided it into 2 and keeping a biggish piece back I let him stick his nose in my hand, while he was eating the hot dog I brushed one side of him, when finished he got the bigger piece as a reward then I done the same for the other side. The strange thing about this dog was he didn't normally want treats but would work for lots of praise. I would never have got a muzzle on him because of the abuse he had previously, he thought nothing of attacking humans. When he went to his new home he was happy to be brushed.
Giving Ben away - passing on the problem - was just not an option. I wish I could send you a PM because I would explain, but I can't, so therefore you will have to trust me when I say he was what Cesar Millan (whether you like him or not, he is right about red zoners) calls a "Red Zoner".
I don't pass on problems either so I can understand you with this, when I took on Gracie I was told she was good with other dogs, she tried to kill one of mine when she first arrived and it took me 3 months before she could be loose in the same room as my others even with a house lead on. Outside all she wanted to do was kill any dog she saw, she was worse than any dog I saw CM deal with. Even humans she would turn on, some of the scars on my hands are from her bites and she once went through one of my finger nails to the bone. She turned into a lovely dog, very gently and good with other dogs, I still miss her
Sometimes with dogs - and horses too - you have to do something that you are not comfortable with. It takes guts and it takes bravery to do something with confidence that you are not happy about doing.
I was a BHS AI, worked with horses straight out of the sales, many hadn't been handled before or had been ill treated. We had 3 days to turn these horses round ready to go down south to the sales. We had to clip and plait them, have them shod etc, not once did we use any methods on them we were not happy with. Yes I got kicked and bitten but that was fear, once horse's tail was a real mess, it hadn't been brushed for over a year because people were too frightened to brush it because he kicked. His tail was beautiful when he left us.
I would advise anybody if all else had failed, rather than resort to keeping their dog on a lead the whole time because they were unable to train a reliable recall, approach a trainer who can show them how to use an e collar responsibly.
You don't need an E collar to teach a good recall, I have 4 dogs here now that all have good recalls, one of my past dogs was rehomed to us because they couldn't keep her in, she would take herself walkabout when she wanted and would disappear on a walk for several hours. She ignored you calling her back but she did get a good recall with consistent training and finding something she would work for, it wasn't treats.
My beliefs ARE honestly held - I am absolutely 100% convinced that I have done the right thing - or rather we have. I place the credit for this entirely at the door of hubby, because I went ballistic when he said he was buying a Dogtra e collar. To give him his due, he was weeks in communication with Lou someone - Lou Castle I think it may be who does all the training advice for Dogtra in the States - and we met up with a trainer who is an expert in the use of e collars - but I was very, very sceptical. I still have never pressed the button myself - even ON myself, I had to let OH do it! However, I did carry it when I had to take the boys out on my own on their harness round the village just in case, having had a lesson from OH, but I was worried nonetheless.
I have never doubted your beliefs, as to Lou, I know him and am a big pain in his side when we meet on a forum, it was he who said he could teach Joe a good recall in 14 days, I done it in 10 with positive methods. It was the first time I had really used true positive methods and I have never stopped learning about it.
I hate ignorance about anything I suppose - so many people bash Cesar Millan, but a lot of what he advocates is good. He is not all bad.
Like you I hate ignorance and I agree about CM, he isn't all bad and he has got people exercising their dogs now which is a really good thing.
There is one clip of him using an E collar on a dog that gets up to the window to bark and carry on, he has tried to hide the collar and the remote but the way the dog acts when he zaps him tells everyone just what is happening, he is really hurting the dog.
Originally Posted by
Lacey10
Fair play to you Gnasher
Let's face it the majority of dog owners were gonna be against from the get go. Good to see a completely different viewpoint. You give your honest opinion when a lot of people in your situation would have remained silent.
Have to admit to being totally ignorant on the topic, have enjoyed reading the reasons for and against and learning more about it
Good luck with the Black Labs
I admire Gnasher's honesty as well, the outcome of this thread is both sides have been given and how to use the collar, I did look into it before I decided against it, Lou is one of the people I learnt from. I had made my mind up before I saw someone use it the wrong way, that just showed me how dangerous it is in the wrong hands, the dog paid with his life.
We probably never will agree on this, but I do thank you at least for your civility in conversing with me. It is a very very emotive subject, e collar usage, and I have chosen to stick my head above the parapet, so deserve all I get - no-one asked me to - but it is because, like you feeling very passionately AGAINST e collars, I feel very passionately about the RESPONSIBLE use of e collars as a LAST RESORT before condemning your dog to a lifetime on the lead, or rehoming him, or even having him put down.
It has been a good discussion and it is how we learn but discussing things . We should never stop learning, the day I do I won't be breathing, things are changing all the time and the more we understand the more we can help our dogs.
I did used to think the E collar would be fine as a last resort but the more I learn about positive training the more I have gone against that.