I agree but I think that it is easy for people to exaggerate a pain threshold of a dog to dramatise an arguement when I know what I see with my own eyes and my staff and my GSD have pain thresholds beyond mine and I dont have to be a vet or victoria stillwell to see that - and guess what I am not going to insult the intelligence of people on this thread who advocate Ecollars by suggesting they wouldnt have thought long and hard about the implications to their dogs an ecollar will bring. They are either behaviourists or have sought the advice of a behaviourist, but there is nothing to suggest they have chosen their course of action through laziness or disregard for their dog.

As for banning ecollars - it wouldnt affect my life as I have never said I intended using one - but im not going to have the audacity to question someones integrity if in their belief they think they are doing it for the dogs own good as a contigency for if that dog ever got out and bothered nieghbouring livestock.
I know what that knotted feeling in your stomach is like when you think something harmful could befall your dog - a few weeks ago my cav who 90 percent of the time stays in the confines of my garden, slipped under my front gate where the chicken mesh had got pushed up and shot clean out into the road after a rabbit into the field opposite. Luckily I live in a quiet lane and there was no passing traffic, but my dogs behaviour was not expected but it happened and I think unlesss im mistaken is what some people would utilise an e-collar for.
But do i think the people on this thread who have said they use one are lazy or deliberately spiteful to their dogs - certainly not.

So you think the best thing I can do for my dog is to never let him off-lead apart from the once-a-week maximum we can drive to the park? Even though I know with a few e-collar sessions he could enjoy off-lead romps through the local woods, open countryside and country parks twice every day?

It's up to you what you do with your dog, I'm just expressing an opinion, and no I don't agree with dogs with high prey drives being off lead around livestock - e-collars or not - for the reasons I mentioned above, end of.

Sally. If your going to quote from posts it is best to put at the top who wrote them.
As the quote above was mine I shall reply to it. I have posted twice to you directly on here. On of them was a straight forward post in reply to one of yours that did not make it clear whether you were running your dog in a field with livestock or nearby etc. As you came back with a post quoting me in it then I responded to you with my opinion, which still stands. How then does that mean I'm "slagging you off all the time" I'm sorry if I've touched a nerve but I'm not going to totally agree with something i'm totally against.
In terms of your post on 415, I don't recall you asking me directly any questions. I will have a look and get back to you, however I did post on how I trained my dog to stay of livestock without the use of an ecollar and I said it did take me 12 months rather than an hour on an ecollar. So that's one response for you. Give the dog more time. The thing with mine is I didn't want my dogs to be scared or loathed to go nr livestock as I wanted to start working them. So I had a right challenge with them. But the hard work has paid off

Works for mine!!

My dogs are never off lead.. and they are happy, healthy, safe and so are the livestock

I agree with most of what you've said When someone posts on here that they have tried and tried for months on end, tried every training technique going, used experience behaviourists etc etc, then I would show some sympathy. As yet though I have not seen this posted by anyone. So yes to me if anyone has not tried to the very best of their ability and gone down every avenue, then it's sad then to use something that was invented for a quick fix for the owners convenience.

why are they ILLEGAL in wales if they arent Cruel, cause pain & iare a lazy in humane way to train.

Read some books, get on some courses,TRAIN your dogs.Dont rely on nasty gadgets to do your work for you,because its a easy option.

Tx - hope I've done it right.

Sorry if I was a little touchy. Had a 'me against the world' kind of day all round and let it spill over to this forum. I apologise.

I have looked, but all I can find is this:
Please can you expain HOW you did this? HOW did you get him to leave them when you wanted? I have also spent months and alot of my time training Spike to listen to me. I have looked for someone who would let me train my dog around sheep and the only person I could find at the time was someone who would show me with an e-collar.

I dont want Spike to be scared or loathed to go nr livestock either! Glad to know your hard work has paid off! Although I don't want to work Spike with sheep, I DO want him to be able to walk alongside of a field of livestock (with a fence or hedge) without becoming compulsive or obsessive. I know he CAN do this IF I were to continue the e-collar training and was asking how more positive training methods can be used to do this?

Sorry I haven't had a chance to read the full thread but just wanted to ask how you KNOW that with a few e-collar sessions your dog would no longer chase livestock?

Sorry, KNOW is the wrong word. I am very confident, but I don't KNOW.