and i do a lot of contact sports and am aware of how robust a human body can be as well, but we arent talking about a human body we are talking about dogs. I have two dogs who rough house eachother everyday with no effects, tails wagging, going back for more and more. In the last fortnight Ive seen my staff run full throttle into a skip, a door, bars on a trampoline and just carry on like nothing has happened - if I were to compare the physiology of the two that would result in a human stopping dead in its tracks on all three occasions where my little fella just gayly carried on. I also dont think someone would push down on the centre back of a dog, they would push down on its bum, maybe while giving a little lift on the collar, in a slightly more exaggerated way in which all those show folk adjust and tweak their dogs stance.
But I cant see the reason for your 'it can cause spinal injury' comment when you dont have the foggiest whether it ever has. It has no more weight to it than saying throwing a ball or stick or giving a dog a bone can harm it when I am sure that you will get more anecdotal evidence from people on this forum of in circumstances accidents have happened from the latter two examples than a spinal injury being incurred by someone responsibly maneouvering their dog into a sit position.
I bundle with my two bigger dogs far far rougher than any physical check ive ever given either of them - ill slide my staff acorss the floor and he'll come boundin back at me and jump all over me - but I cant knock him out of the way when he went for Lola as a pup ?
But it gets boring when people try and deliberate use provocative language such as 'spinal injury' when they cant even give evidence of any to make people, who feel justified in using measured contact with their dogs, out to be some kind of ignorant brutes.
There is grey areas on both side of the corporal / non corporal argument about owning dogs IMO, I think positive reward is a preferred method to training dogs for sure, but im not going to be a hypocrite and say ive never physically checked my dogs because i have done and will probably do again - i know they aint hand fearful and I know they love me to bits as i do them, but i also am aware that there are those that use smacking as an everyday tool, as a means of violence and as a means of frustration. On the flip side there are those that use the ideology of praise and confuse it with kindness and create just as dangerous dogs as a result.
Some of the people on here are testament to how there are ways of understandin and gettin desired responses from dogs with reward etc and having happy balanced dogs as a result the likes of Shona, Patch are two who immediately spring to mind, but I am also happy to believe that there are those that may do things differently to them and too have happy balanced dogs as well as they are confident in how they do things and their intentions are well meaning even if their methods are considered out-dated by some.

I am happy that people advocate positive reinforcement in dog training - as I say thats my preferred way myself, but hollow, unsubstantiated 'facts' like a person sitting their dog down can cause spinal injury are as reckless scaremongering as the media labelling certain dog breeds killers when bee stings kill more people every year in this country - its a bad argument and to use your words to SallyinLancs ( who i dont necessarily agree with ) I sitll dont beleive it.

A i know his pain tollerence
B i know mine
C I know the settings i use
D I know his reaction to the stimuli
E I know his reaction to pain higher than his pain level
F I know how he reacts to the e-collar as a device

So basicaly i know

Here is something for you. I train at the highest level (Belgian Ring NVBK competition) And my dog always wear an E-collar on training. The last time i corrected was in march.

Yeah we realy torture our dogs. Are you kidding. Thousands of hours of training with a dog that is easily worth tens of thousands of euros.

I'm not creazy (according to my wife i am )

Greetings

Johan

I am being particularly thick this morning, so how does the collar work if it doesn't inflict pain, what does the dog feel

If a bee lands on your face it doesn't inflict pain but it anoys you and you're instant reaction is to get rid of it.

Same with an ecollar. The level used is such that it goes trough his drives and startles him. Depending on season, weather conditions, working in water and charge of the batery this level changes. This is in no way comparable to the electric fences around fields; they hurt. An e-collar, properly used, will have an effect a bit more severe than what you feel when you put the 2 lips of those flat batteries on your tonghue. It is uncofortable but it doesn't hurt

Greetings

Johan

Yes! As I have already explained *please note Patch and Megan57Collies* I have absolutely NO desire to walk my dog off-lead through a livestock field!! I'm not stupid! The problem is that my dog has bolted off-lead, bounded a full field away and through the fence of a field of livestock. There are livestock fields all around where we live, right outside my backdoor, around all the places where we walk and right next to my local park. We only have to be within SIGHT, SMELL or SOUND of livestock (sheep or cows), for Spike to feel compulsed to chase and become distracted by his obsession. He will break through hedges or fences to get to livestock so the fact that they are fenced in is not a deterrent to him.

I have had ONE 20 minute training session with the e-collar around livestock a few months ago. Currently, he is always kept on a lead or line. I am continuing to work on his on lead/line training with positive methods and thankfully I have found one park I can drive to which is nowhere near livestock - so I am taking him here to work on his off-lead training (again, using positive only methods).

While the on-lead training is going very well and he shows no compulsion to chase while on-lead, I obviously cannot take the risk of training him off-lead with ANY HINT of livestock around, so I can't introduce him to that sort of distraction gradually.

I just want him to enjoy the lovely long walks we have around here off lead like he used to without fear of him breaking through fences and bounding off over fields in an obsessive frenzy. I KNOW it's possible to do this with an e-collar because the one session I had was totally successful. I am satisfied that during the session he was not hurt or fearful. I love my dog and have no reason to want to hurt him or make him afraid.

He shows compulsive and obsessive behaviour when off-lead around livestock - anywhere else or on a line, and his behaviour is normal. How would you train him so that he can enjoy the freedom he used to? At what point during the positive on-lead training would you consider it safe to let him off lead? Or at what point during the off-lead training would you consider it safe to introduce the distraction of livestock and how could this be managed?

My dogs have always shown total compliance to sit with a very small amount of pressure to their bum. I have never had to 'force' them into a sit. The action of pressing gently on their rump has been enough for them to understand what I wanted. Furthermore, I have seen my dogs jump on each others rumps AND backs (and heads and necks for that matter) with FAR more force than I have ever used and they seem to both thoroughly enjoy that kind of rough and tumble. Should I stop them playing together for fear of them damaging each other's backs?

I have also seen them bite each other's necks during play. Occasionally one will bite a bit too hard until one gives a little yelp. Then the other backs off and they go back to the play. Should I stop them playing because it obviously hurts sometimes? I believe this is perfectly normal play behaviour in dogs. It obviously hurts more than the e-collar did as Spike never yelped when I used it yet you say the e-collar is cruel. Is letting them play cruel too?

I take it Sally you always have your dogs as adults, all puppies sit naturally and do not need to be shown how to, they only need to be taught the word for the action of sitting which they will do anyway.

well ill hold my hands up and admit i must be very bad at training my dogs cos Lola was sitting from 12-13 weeks no problem but 1 time in 10 she'll just ignore me or switch off - the softest of nudges on her bum sits her down without her even acknowledging it

One of my dogs I have had from about 12 weeks. The other was 2yo when I got her.

First of all, I don't see the need to put any pressure on a dogs rump when you want it to sit. My dogs sit whenh I say sit. If I have to repeat I stand in front of them and use my hand signal as well as the command. No need for force of any sort. I don't touch them, nor do I touch them when training a sit or a down. No need.

As for dogs showing pain in play and showing pain when shocked. 2 entirely different scernarios that cannot be compared. In play the dogs have told each other it is just that, using body language etc etc...so the dogs WILL be more vocal if it hurts as they are 'safe' in the knowledge that everyone knows this is play, so they tell each other when it goes too far.
A dog in a field who is suddenly shocked, will not show pain or react in the same way, as they are startled and do not know what has caused it. It is not safe for them to show pain.