Tapioca as a 'carb' source

Does anyone know whether Tapioca is considered a grain?

I thought it was.. I'm thinking of school dinners (pudding!)

Just curious.. I was looking at Royal Canin dog food as last resort for JJ if he seemed allergic to everything else, I found a duck one but also contains Tapioca instead of potato and claims to be cereal free, so was just wondering?

As its a vet prescription food you'd think they would have researched this carefully and scientifically proven it didn't cause allergies/issues for most dogs.. but I'm still thinking of the sloppy school puddings with a dollop of jam in the middle.. lol! (thinking it was wheat based?)

Though I'm now thinking.. some of his symptoms that I thought were allergy related (that may have started off as allergy related) are now not... ie itching could be habit or fleas!

the 'bald patch' could possibly be a hereditary skin pigment issue after talking on breeders FB group.. as it is only on front of his nose.

.. and I was thinking these things were a sign that there was still something in the food he was allergic to.

Tapioca is not a grain. It is a starchy substance extracted from the root of the cassava plant, and is a carbohydrate source just as potato is.

ok Thanks. I wasn't sure.

We're sticking with his current food for now as I'm gonna try coconut oil to see if it helps with his allergies and immune system... then maybe re-try eggs.. that will open up more food options for him too and cheaper if I need to go on tighter budget!

Dogs are not designed to eat carbs - they are primarily carnivores, with a very small requirement for veg material, although there is some new scientific evidence that many dogs now have evolved such that they can digest some carbs. Have you ever considered feeding a more natural diet of raw meat and bones? This may help with the allergy issues?

I am not sure what you are asking?

Is it whether or not tapioca is a grain (it comes from cassava or manioc plant from which the root is used) or whether it is a good source of carbs?

There is no proven need for carbohydrates in a dog's diet, so it is unecessary to feed them.

Dogs get their energy from fats.

If your dog is truly allergic (as opposed to being food intolerant) then he must be very ill.

It may also be that you are focusing on the wrong part of the diet and unless an elimination diet is followed you will just be guessing.

It is impossible to "scientifically prove" that foods do not cause allergies, however as tapioca is practically protein free it is unlikely to cause an allergy but not impossible.

I am surprised that your vet has not presribed something like z/d ultra where the protein is hydrolised so that it is extremely unlikely to trigger an allergy?

You can then carefully reintroduce single foods to identify those which are problematic to your dog.

Sounds like you need to take a more systematic approach to his diet and other areas.

no the vet initially recommended Wafcol salmon & potato when JJ had come with purina beta puppy as he was very itchy and had red spots all over his tummy.

The wafcol cleared the spots and reduced some of itching but his poo's seemed to get runnier the longer he was on it and ended with liquid squits..vet told me to give him a bland diet and he thought it was cos I hadn't given him his wormer yet so told me to give him the panancur. I think vet felt it was a bug as they'd had alot in with tummy bugs.

He went on bland diet..retried wafcol ...back to same results within a day after I had managed to get his poo's firmed up and the itching had increased after it had gone completely on home cooked.

I decided to research myself as annoyed vet had not advised well after paying £80 for 5 min home visit! ..They obviously didn't have time to do extensive research for one customer so did some myself and found single novel protein food (duck) from Bob & Lush. he's liked the trial. He's on that and his poo's are firm and the itching stopped (unless he managed to get hold of older dogs treats whose not allergic to cereal and loves Bakers soft treats!)

So trying to find some cereal free treats she will eat instead in case puppy gets hold of hers then he's not scratching all night. He definitely does scratch more if he's had something with cereal in, even oats in the 'gluten free treats' and his eyes seem redder.

When he's gone a few days without managing to get hold of anything with cereal in his eyes are really clear, his poo's firm, the itching stops but then I wasn't sure where the bald patch came from that suddenly seemed to appear on his nose! ..and whether this was another allergy symptom? He hasn't lost fur anywhere else and has a thick coat. The Dene's garlic spray seems to have relieved some itchyness for him too.

I haven't looked into hydrolised proteins yet. I didn't really get what the difference was and how it would help him exactly? I saw it mentioned briefly once on Working HPR's site int heir food salmon & potato with allergy X, but wasn't really sure what difference was between that and the Wafcol Salmon & potato?

We had problems when we briefly tried a multi meat/fish/egg food too...either too much total proteins or the egg in it?..so went back to a single protein completely cereal free and picked Bob & Lush (as I had voucher for £25 off to try it)


what is z/d food? Is that the Hills Science Plan? I thought they had alot of cereal in?

Thanks

Edit: I just looked up the Hills z/d ultra allergen and it says its shouldn't be fed to puppies..would that mean under a year old? ..if so he can't go on that anyway. (he's 6 months old on 23rd)

Six months is fine to be on an adult diet, if nithing else is agreeing, however check with your vet if unsure about the .z/d which I mentioned on another thread. Harvey was never in his life on a puppy food - as none agreed with him and it has did him no harm and he is now six

Harvey looking after our kitten who was just after surgery

awwh Harvey is cute with his kitty!

I'm going to try Coconut oil first as I've read about its health benefits and it might help them both with different issues..if not my last resort would be to try some RC sensitivity control for JJ and do a full elimination diet..and maybe the obesity/satiety food for Inca to help her lose weight if the coconut oil plus F4D weight control doesn't work for her...but prescription food would be my last resort.

Apparently if a dog has candida yeast overgrowth it can make it appear to be allergic to everything and coconut oil can hep with this by killing off the yeast without killing off the good bacteria too as medications/antibiotics do.

I don't know how to upload a file on here but there's one called 'coconut oil.pdf' online about canine candida.

I think it is the constant back and forth with his diet that may be causing the problems.

I think you should stick with one that agrees with him for a while instead of constantly changing his diet along with different treats too.

Also the treatments you have put on his nose may also disagree with him.

I would go back to basics and keep him on one food and use that or plain cooked chicken for treats and stay that way for a good while as it appears he is being changed regularly.

His diet issues have been present since I got him at 9 weeks.. This is the first time I have found a food that 'agrees' with him!.

I had to change first two as he was getting sickness and severe squits... at one point spraying out of him like liquid every hour throughout the night.. no way I could leave him on that until I'd finished the bag.. at that point he was already underweight and smaller than the vet expected him to be by that age.

He came out and weighed him on proper scales and he still fit on the puppy scales they brought to weigh him on at 9 weeks! .. I think the vet was expecting him to be around 10-12kg he said and he was 7.5-8kg ( was 7kg at 9wks when very first weighed him!) so he'd gained only half a kilo and was not much bigger than the first time this vet had seen him.

I talk to some of the owners of his brothers/sisters and they are bigger than him, even some of his sisters who were smaller than him when they were all born. He was one of 7 but not the last or smallest when born (3rd puppy born, second male).

I've since found out one of his sisters (merle like thier dad) also has the 'pigment issue' on her nose as the 'dad' does too, so looks like that is definitely an inherited thing rather than him been allergic to this food too. (I didn't see the 'dad' and JJ's 'sister' with same issue had already been sold and only just found the owner via FB). JJ is black/white and looks spitting image of his 'mum' with colouring and mottling (except for pigment loss on nose).

A few of the pups whose owners didn't want to feed raw also initially had difficulties diet wise, it seems the puppies were weaned straight onto raw off mothers milk!.. but then brought out with free pack of Purina Beta puppy (first ingredient is cereal) for owners that didn't want to do raw.

My vet emailed me back and said sounds like it due to them not been weaned properly onto kibble etc. They said they can do testing but its not always conclusive and is expensive or can prescribe something like RC and do a proper elimination diet.. or keep him on this current one a bit longer. She also felt the nose thing was not part of allergy symptoms (I sent her photo's via email).

She also knows of a dog whose owner swears by coconut oil and is eating regular dog food on it when previously dog was only able to keep down a prescription diet. Mine will arrive wed so I'm gonna give that a go first. Vet recommended another month unless he gets severe diarrhea or something from it, but he finally seems to be growing and keeping weight on!

My friend weighed him last week on scales (by standing on them with him) and he was 11.9kg.. maybe bit heavier by now... 19" to shoulder... so he's catching up!