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Wysiwyg
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13-06-2006, 02:54 PM
Oh dear me!

Electric collars are able to go from 0-100 so you cannot say Clobb that they cannot be painful.

I know of a dog at the moment who is a spaniel and who is being shocked as he doesn't recall - he still cowers in the hedge and the owners are shocking him on a higher level as they claim he is just "disobedient" . This is how the collars are being used, they are abusive.

As for operant conditioning, that's more for behaviourists and not for dog owners who just want to know how to train their pet. If you start and tell them about it they will just glaze over, unless they are seriously into training to a competition level, surely you realise that?.

You're pretty rude, trying to trip members up by suggesting they use punishment methods.Dear me! You're not discussing things like most would - I would guess you have some kind of agenda in mind?
Trouble
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13-06-2006, 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Oh dear me!

Electric collars are able to go from 0-100 so you cannot say Clobb that they cannot be painful.

I know of a dog at the moment who is a spaniel and who is being shocked as he doesn't recall - he still cowers in the hedge and the owners are shocking him on a higher level as they claim he is just "disobedient" . This is how the collars are being used, they are abusive.

As for operant conditioning, that's more for behaviourists and not for dog owners who just want to know how to train their pet. If you start and tell them about it they will just glaze over, unless they are seriously into training to a competition level, surely you realise that?.

You're pretty rude, trying to trip members up by suggesting they use punishment methods.Dear me! You're not discussing things like most would - I would guess you have some kind of agenda in mind?
Oh I am soooo glad you said that. have already glazed over, and agree with the attitude as well.
Lucky Star
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13-06-2006, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
You're pretty rude, trying to trip members up by suggesting they use punishment methods.Dear me! You're not discussing things like most would - I would guess you have some kind of agenda in mind?
I agree - why all the hostility? Azz gave the descriptions 'in a nutshell' as most owners understand them. I have had good results with a very stubborn and highly prey-driven (please don't argue semantics with me here - I'm just a mere dog owner who happens to admire the likes of Ian Dunbar) dog by setting up situations, teaching a desired behaviour (eg leave it) and rewarding that behaviour such that today my dog unbelievably left a rabbit alone and came back to me instead. And boy did I reward him. Admittedly he's not feeling himself at the moment but that was a real result for us.

On a lesser scale we have seen huge improvements in returning to us and leaving things. It just took lots of positive reinforcement, time and patience.
uncllou
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13-06-2006, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by eRaze
No matter how you dress it up or try to justify it, or pick at how others train, most dog owners will see electric shock collars as a cruel method of training. Why do they think that? Because if they look around they see it just isn't nescessery - people are training their dogs to a very high level using positive reinforement techniques.
I'm sorry but I don't think that your statement makes sense. You say that because Ecollars aren't necessary that people regard them as a "cruel method of training." Thos two statements really don't go together.

An Ecollar is certainly not "necessary." After all we trained dogs for many thousands of years before them came along. But they're here now and there's no reason that, used properly, they should be overlooked.

I think that any who regards Ecollars as "cruel" has seen the tool misused or abused, has heard such stories and hasn't seen modern, low level stim, use of the tool.

Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Electric collars are able to go from 0-100 so you cannot say Clobb that they cannot be painful.
Nowhere have I seen Clobb makes such a statement. But the same can be said of any tool. It can go from 0-100 as well. I can gently rub my dog's ears or I can punch him. It's up to the user to see that it's used properly.

Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
I know of a dog at the moment who is a spaniel and who is being shocked as he doesn't recall - he still cowers in the hedge and the owners are shocking him on a higher level as they claim he is just "disobedient" . This is how the collars are being used, they are abusive.
I'd agree, that is abusive. But it's not proper use of the Ecollar. If I was to use my leash to beat my dog with, that would be abusive and not proper use of the tool. Abuse isn't in the tool. They are just inanimate objects. It's how they're used that is important. Citing such misuses of the tool don't affect proper use.

Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
As for operant conditioning, that's more for behaviourists
I think the reason the Clobb brought up OC is that many people who consider themselves to be "positive trainers" have twisted the terms "negative" and "punishment" (as taken from OC) into another meaning. Doing so clouds the issue. They've taken the OC terms and are now using them to mean that one for of training is positive (good) and another form is negative (bad). The only "bad training" is that which is abusive or doesn't give the desired results.

Using positive reinforcement only in dog training is usually a mistake. It's great for getting dogs to do things until distractions are introduced. But it's not very good for getting a dog to stop doing something. Usually an incompatible command is taught (for example, getting a dog to stop jumping up by teaching him to sit) but it doesn't stop the problem, only distracts the dog from it for a moment. The method also doesn't work well on highly driven dogs because they have their own agendas.


Regards,

Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
Uncllou@aol.com
eRaze
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13-06-2006, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by uncllou
I think that any who regards Ecollars as "cruel" has seen the tool misused or abused, has heard such stories and hasn't seen modern, low level stim, use of the tool.
Do Ecollars emit an electric shock or charge? If so that's why people think they are cruel.
leo
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13-06-2006, 05:15 PM
what ever way you put it across or dress them up i for one will never use them on any dog i own now or the future.
you can train dogs to a high standard without ever needing such a tool in the process.
thanks but i will pass.
Trouble
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13-06-2006, 05:21 PM
me too, have never had any problems getting the dogs to do what I want when I want certainly would never use any kind of shock collar.
Lucky Star
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13-06-2006, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by uncllou




Using positive reinforcement only in dog training is usually a mistake. It's great for getting dogs to do things until distractions are introduced. But it's not very good for getting a dog to stop doing something. Usually an incompatible command is taught (for example, getting a dog to stop jumping up by teaching him to sit) but it doesn't stop the problem, only distracts the dog from it for a moment. The method also doesn't work well on highly driven dogs because they have their own agendas.
Hi Lou

Not sure I agree with this statement. My dog is a terrible one for jumping up and I taught him to stop by a using a combineation of turning my back and making him sit before stroking him. He rarely jumps up on me now and tends to sit without being asked.
Wysiwyg
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13-06-2006, 05:58 PM
I agree there's no need for shock collars.

Best way to train is positive reinforcement, combined if needed with extinction and occasionally negative punishment (ie removal of a toy, company etc for a short time).

Lots of dogs are trained to high standards this way including high drive dogs. Dog and owner are happy. No problem.

I can't see the point of this discussion in fact.
Clob
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13-06-2006, 06:11 PM
eRaz
Do Ecollars emit an electric shock or charge? If so that's why people think they are cruel

Clob
I am answering this first as I don’t have enough time yet for the lengthier posts.

The only collars capable of giving an electric shock were the obsolete ones I already mentioned and it was one extremely high level shock at that.

I don’t see why people think they were cruel partly because of the purpose of use but how on earth do these people remember them, they were very, very rare and simply a life or death attempt to save a dogs life.

Not only do I not understand why they thought they were cruel I don’t see any relevance to anything, or why there is any reference to them, its like saying its cruel to take a dog to vets for an operation, let it die, that’s irrational, hysterical thinking, "My dog is dying, the vet will cut him open to try and save him, let him die", no, few people would accept that as rational thinking.

For historical accuracy, the civilian electric shock collars were invented by a German vet in the 1950’s as a possible dafety device for that point in time.

Below is Ch1 from one of my text papers, in fact a 2004 DEFRA accepted text paper:

Historical clarification and categorisation of types of e-collars.

Denis Carthy
____________________

Chapter 1.


Specific use, electric shock collars


UK 1950’s - late 1980’s.

There has been e-collars of one sort or another in the UK in civilian hands since around the 1950’s, these were usually brought over from Germany by service personnel and either sold on or loaned by them. A firm called Karenswood, I think from Solihull, used to get them to order or hire, they were very rare.

The only collars I knew of in the UK between 1976 and around the late 80’s were electric shock collars, long since obsolete. I was told in 1976, when I first used one, that electric shock collars first came into use in WW2 and were of German origin, I have no reason to doubt this and some German contacts confirm some sort of electric shock collar was known to be in military use in Germany at that time.

The difference between an electric shock collar and modern remote trainers was the fact that the e-shock collar had two contact points which contacted either side of the neck, 2 or 3 inches below the ears. Once fired the shock went into the neck and met the electric shock from the other contact point on the other side of the neck. The e-shock collar I used in 1976 and once in the late eighties with someone else’s dog was German in origin, it was not remote and was an electric shock collar.

They had one very high level and could not be adjusted to the individual dog. They were only used in extreme circumstances or the “out” in protection work. They were never designed or intended for ordinary pet use and were not a training collar. They were designed solely for high drive working line dogs and were sometimes used in conjunction with a method and other aids with some pet dogs which had aggression or sheep chasing problems and were in a life, death or rescue situation.

Electric shock collars were rare in the UK, everyone I know who were training in either protection sports or training the protection dogs of that point in time as well as many show dog people had heard of ‘electric shock collars’ but few people had ever seen them and fewer still had ever used them. If I had not rescued a dog from Battersea dogs home I would probably never have seen them, even so a lot of myths about them and their use abounded in those days.

There was a more recent electric shock collar which was also made in Germany, possibly by the same manufacturer. It had the same electrodes at the side of the neck and the electric shock also went into the neck from either side, the electric shocks from each contact point met inside the body as before. They had low, medium and high levels and were remote.

These were in use in Europe until the late nineties but no one I have ever spoken to heard of any of them being used here in UK, I saw one in Germany and they seemed to be used pretty much like the old shock collars, as a positive punisher only. It has been illegal to sell these collars for many years, they did not pass the European CE safety standard and were dangerous to humans.

The term electric shock is a recognised scientific term, static electro muscle stimulation collars are incapable of delivering an electric shock, anyone using electric shock as their terminology when referring to electro pulse collars would be misleading others. My doctor and presumably the NHS recognises the Blacks medical dictionary as one authority.

Ch 1 -Remote Electronic Training Collars. Fifty years of UK history, from electric shock to a sensation Second Edition, E-Collars, Historical Clarification, from electric shock to a sensation, 1950s – 2006.

Reproduction prohibited
DenisCarthy©2004
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