No you are right, because there is always the chance of a throwback (what I call a wildcard) however, carry on breeding low scoring dogs together and keeping the GENETIC high score dogs out of the gene pool as much as possible, and you will find the scores do come down. As has been said, the KC make a fortune out of registering puppies, and they don't seem to care whether these puppies are going to be affected by what they have inherited from their parents, whether they have been bred in poor to appalling conditions, whether they are so inbred as to be dangerous, I could go on, as long as they gets their pound of flesh they don't care. One very good reason why I am, and always have been, against the type/breed I am involved with, getting under the KC auspices. We are very very strict within ourselves, and have different 'star'pedigrees denoting as to the health tests the parents have taken, also the price structure varies. All puppies MUST be litter eye screened, they MUST be microchipped, they MUST be vet checked before leaving for their new home and they MUST have their 1st vax.
I find it incredible that a so called official body such as the KC refuses to draw a line in the sand.

Malka I am grateful for your help, I really do appreciate it. As for questioning the x-rays etc after your post I should have specified that I needed the spine explaining to me. I think I can see a lip or spur on the vertebrae but as I do not know what a dogs spine looks like it is hard for me to be certain this is what I am supposed to see.

I accept your greater knowledge with regards human anatomy and a how human and dogs hips are alike. I also accept that despite the best breeding practices occasionally a dog with HD may be produced.

I hope that our disagreement with regards 'these things happen' will not affect our being able to communicate in the future.

Twix. I also appreciate your input. And whilst it appalls me that so many boxers were bred without hip scoring it doesnt surprise me.
As for the KC, I find their lack of enthusiasm for setting a higher standard with regards breeding and breeders very distressing.
Yes if you raise the bar too high at first some wont even bother to try reaching it.
But surely if you give enough incentive, if you do it gradually then slowly I think they will find the BYB and the supposed professional, who sell their pups because their sire or bitch has won at this or that show particularly Crufts will start to follow a more ethical breed standard.

Tawneywolf. I think you and I are singing from the same hymnsheet.

Lots of dogs that win at Crufts could well fail an eye test at the very least. I was interested to find out that working gun dogs are least likely to have their eyes tested, and most likely to have a fail if they did
The KC get away with it because they are scared of losing money.
Was talking to a KC representative not so long ago, who is a breeder themselves. They said to me that they had had a conversation whereby it was stated the KC are thinking of letting in all the designer type crosses such as labradoodles, cockerpoo, springadors etc as they were losing revenue because they were not KC reg, and you know what, it didn't surprise me in the least.
I am so against my breed being KC recognised you wouldn't believe it, I have so many rows about it within our breed group, I think it will do our dogs active harm in the long term.
People seem to think KC recognition is the Eldorado, I think it is the beginning of the end, and for the poor breed that actually wins Crufts, it is all downhill from there for them.

I think you are expecting to much, if you think the BYB is going to adhere to any regulations the KC set.

Lets not forget only around 2% of pedigree dogs are bred by breeders involved in the show world, so what about the remaining 98% , who's breeding them , and what ethics do they follow. The show world and their breed clubs are the ones at the forefront of health testing and research.

You seem to think the KC are responsible for all the problems are dogs suffer from, in 2011 there were around 5000 Boxers registered with the KC ( have not got latest figures) , that is a drop in the ocean of those bred by other means..ie unregistered dogs bred by BYB or pf , do you think any of these breeders do any health testing at all.

Your fixated on hips in the Boxer, can you confirm that ALL those Boxers bred in Germany are free from hip problems due to being scored, it would be interesting to know if HD has been eradicated due to stringent health testing......the point being, hip scoring is no gaurantee against it happening.

Why do you say " your not surprised " the Boxer is not hip scored,

Do you know how hard people in the breed ( mainly the show world) work towards producing healthy dogs, AS, Cardiomyopathy , and now JKD, are the main problems in our breed, health screening , and research into effected lines is ongoing.... Yes it would be great if breeders hip scored too, but for now they don't seem to see it as important, so you pay your money and make your choice, if you feel so strongly about it, you will have to vote with your feet, and either import or go for another breed.

I feel a little incensed that you are so negative against our breed here in the UK, you seem to think due to hip scoring not being paramount to breeders, that the breed is in dire straits.... Believe me, I know and have known many many Boxers and their breeders over the years, seeing generation after generation being born and growing into old age, and extreme hip problems have not killed off the breed or is Likely to any time soon.

By the way, we are all singing from the same sheet, the more health screening we can do the healthier our breeds will be, but even then , things are taken out of our hands, as it is with humans, we can test till the cows come home, but nature and nurture throw curve balls in our path from all angles all the time.

Yes, nature is always throwing curve balls, but isn't that what breeding is about, striving to bring about a dog that is better than the previous generations, being healthier by virtue of the fact that the parents have had some health tests, which do vary from breed to breed.
I think buyers of puppies themselves could do more as well.
The people who contact me for a puppy come to me because I breed from health tested parents and the puppies themselves are litter eye screened and vet checked. I make it very clear to all potential owners that that does not necessarily mean that their puppy will not be carrying something recessive and that these sort of things happen, because we are talking animals here and not machines. However breeding from health tested dogs for several generations does give you a good idea as to what direction to go in and also what problems are being thrown up from those pairings, again giving you the opportunity to ensure that you do your absolute best to attack the problems and solve them if at all possible.
Just saying oh well BYB and Puppy Farmers breed as well, and they don't bother, so we won't doesn't get anyone anywhere. Setting the standard and ensuring that people are aware of the reasons WHY they should be looking at one of your puppies instead of someone who just puts dog A to dog B because it happens to live up the road and is cheap and coincidentally of the same breed, but they don't bother with any tests because of course THEIR dogs are healthy, the vet told them
I have lost count of the number of people I have rung who have been advertising a stud, and when I have enquired as to their health test results, have been told that he is a family pet, therefore health tests aren't necessary!!!!
These people get away with it, because they are allowed to, due to the laxity and laziness of both the KC and the attitude of the general public when purchasing a puppy.

As we say here אין בעיה no problem!

Just because a breed is hip and elbow scored and within the breed club recommendation does not guarantee your pup will not have problems.

As said before it can be environmental as well as hereditary.
In my breed the only tests done here in the Uk and recommended by the breed club are hip and elbows. They also suffer from various forms of cancer and eye problems and degenerative myleopathy which my last Berner had but was not found till post mortem. A rare genetic mutation not the usual one plus many other rare incurable diseases.
Nobody's fault one of those things did I blame the breeder no even though I later found out she was not respected in the breed club.

For my second Bernese I Did my research more in depth.
He still has potentially bad hips he was diagnosed with mild hip dysplasia at 6 months although it could be by now he has grown into himself and and while growing into himself and developing they will not be as bad as feared when he is older.
Even in my breed you see people advertising unregistered pups from unregistered parents. Now that breaks my heart.

Sometimes you can find a good breeder all health tests done all dogs healthy and long lived but it has no guarantees as nothing in life does.

I feel for you but it is one of those things and all you can do is the best for your dog and love your dog as I am sure you do and enjoy every minute he/she is with you.

I have already said, and agreed, that absolutely NOTHING is EVER guaranteed, we are involved with animals here, not little machines, and yes things can go wrong. But surely ensuring that as little as possible can and does go wrong is no bad thing is it??? If maybe your late boy's litter was eye screened it may well have been picked up at an earlier stage, maybe if BOTH parents had been eye screened and were clear it wouldn't have happened, life is full of maybe's and what if's.
Just taking the position that oh well if it goes wrong, so be it, is not going to help or further the resolution of health problems in any breed. Actively going out there and looking to see if there are any problems with the prospective parents, and then keeping an eye on the resultant puppies to see what happens there (I already know what my girls are throwing in average hip and elbow scores, and they are excellent and well below our breed average) is the way forward.
Raising the bar is an excellent way of encouraging other breeders to follow your example, otherwise they risk being left behind and finding it difficult to home their puppies.
One of my friends and I are now DM testing our prospective breed stock, because we are doing it, others are now doing it, that can only be beneficial to our dogs and the ones that follow, their potential owners and the breed in general.

I think a lot of breed clubs are now trying to encourage their members to test for DM now June as it is just down to a swab test.
I know the BMD breed club are trying to get their members to participate and hope in the near future to make it a rule if they want to breed and still remain a member. A good thing in my book.

That can only be a good thing for any breed, and if the Breed Club is tightening up well even better.
All we need is the KC to tighten up now and maybe some breeds will have a chance to be fully functioning dogs again and fit for purpose.