|
Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,145
|
15-11-2006, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by inkliveeva 
Lucky star I wouldn't do anything to hurt my dogs and niether would my trainers by that I mean you had mentioned the word gentle...saying that I only recently started training using pack drive and all I can say is my 2 have improved dramatically, more focused and willing to please, without treats...I didn't think it would work because I used treats in the puppy foundation classes... they haven't even noticed the treats are missing...I think the key is repitition, if they don't do it the first second or fortyth time, patience and perserverance will prevail they give in before I do, and they love the big fuss when its right. I haven't trained in these classes long enough to argue any point for them only the difference it has made to my dogs in a short space of time.
|
|
|
Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,145
|
15-11-2006, 06:22 PM
http://www.volhard.com/training/cpp.htm
http://www.bullyonline.com/scorepersprof.htm
http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_arti...otivation.html
|
|
|
Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
|
15-11-2006, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star
Are these PackDrive?
http://www.volhard.com/training/cpp.htm
http://www.bullyonline.com/scorepersprof.htm
http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_arti...otivation.html
the article Trouble posted differentiates between the different drives and what motivates each drive very well ..http://www.dogsey.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=68
I think things are getting a little confused here, there are different drives with different motivators, and the motivators are not always mutually exclusive...
As Wendy Volard says in your second link ''If you want a well trained dog, you will have to learn how to switch these drives back and forth'' so that also means switching the motivators too..
Not sure if I have explained this very well
.
|
|
|
Location: Finland
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 55
|
15-11-2006, 07:03 PM
Dogs don't talk and don't explain their doings, dogs are animals. Before talking drives there should be discussion about reading a dog. Reading your own dog only on track is pretty hard. When the dog is really moving and doing what dogs do, it is very hard. I've even seen really "gourou" person telling me how my dog switched drive when pullin prong and when pulling leather. And that animal was just playing all the time. Actually it was just happyhappyhappy.
The only drive you can really see is when a male meets a female in heat. And alive.
J
|
|
|
Location: Romford, uk
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 14,265
|
15-11-2006, 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by Dujoiedevie
Ok, now about switching drives. How many of us can tell, what drive is on and when dog changes and why? At least earlier we were talking about beginners, and for beginners drivetheories are like real jargon.
Dogs don't talk and don't explain their doings, dogs are animals. Before talking drives there should be discussion about reading a dog. Reading your own dog only on track is pretty hard. When the dog is really moving and doing what dogs do, it is very hard. I've even seen really "gourou" person telling me how my dog switched drive when pullin prong and when pulling leather. And that animal was just playing all the time. Actually it was just happyhappyhappy.
The only drive you can really see is when a male meets a female in heat. And alive.
J
I think I am very good at reading my dogs which is why I manage to have 3 under excellant control off lead and all still under 2 years of age. I shall not bother with guru's but will stick to my instincts.
|
|
|
|
Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
|
15-11-2006, 07:29 PM
LS
I will try to explain what I mean a little more clearly ..One of the articles you posted states ..
The basic rules for bringing out drives are as follows:
1. Prey drive is elicited by the use of motion -- hand signals (except Stay) -- a high-pitched tone of voice, or an object of attraction (stick, ball or food), chasing or being chased, and leaning backward with your body as the dog comes to you.
2. Pack drive is elicited by touching, praising and smiling at the dog, grooming, and playing and training with your body erect.
As I see it the different drives are partly inherent and partly taught, terriers for example have a very strong prey drive and you can bring out/ enhance /teach this by using squeaky toys and food to train terriers . However, because terriers respond well to these motivator it does not mean that the 'pack drive motivators' of ''touching, praising and smiling at the dog, grooming, and playing and training with your body erect'' are not also used by most good trainers on prey drive dogs, so pack drive motivators are not mutually exclusive to those who train using pack drive.
I don't think you can state categorically that teaching dogs with either pack drive or pray drive motivators is best, you have to find what best motivates your dog and in many instances food is a first motivator in puppies particularly if you obtain a strange puppy ( not one that you have bred yourself ). A puppy needs to bond with you before it is motivated to do anything, a new puppy does not know your touch or your voice but it does know about food.
|
|
|
|
Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,145
|
16-11-2006, 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha
...continued from the above post.. 93
LS
I will try to explain what I mean a little more clearly ..One of the articles you posted states ..
Trouble's article indicates, (and we also know from experience) that all dogs do not have the same drives.
As I see it the different drives are partly inherent and partly taught, terriers for example have a very strong prey drive and you can bring out/ enhance /teach this by using squeaky toys and food to train terriers . However, because terriers respond well to these motivator it does not mean that the 'pack drive motivators' of ''touching, praising and smiling at the dog, grooming, and playing and training with your body erect'' are not also used by most good trainers on prey drive dogs, so pack drive motivators are not mutually exclusive to those who train using pack drive.
I don't think you can state categorically that teaching dogs with either pack drive or pray drive motivators is best, you have to find what best motivates your dog and in many instances food is a first motivator in puppies particularly if you obtain a strange puppy ( not one that you have bred yourself ). A puppy needs to bond with you before it is motivated to do anything, a new puppy does not know your touch or your voice but it does know about food.
. I was starting to think it was something completely obscure but I think it is about basically working with the dog by exploiting his natural instincts/drives. I agree with your comment about food and I also think that most of us quite probably naturally and intuitively work with the dog's own drives in order to train and indeed just communicate generally, but don't use this technique exclusively or give it a unique name. I do think we get to know our own dogs and their temperament, preferences, motivations and even moods and situations and tend to adopt and adapt our training methods, employing a huge spectrum of techniques and rewards - food, body language, games, exercise, tone of voice, praise, touch, dispensations, hand signals, bonding moments, grooming ...
|
|
|
|
Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
|
16-11-2006, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Dujoiedevie
Ok, now about switching drives. How many of us can tell, what drive is on and when dog changes and why? At least earlier we were talking about beginners, and for beginners drivetheories are like real jargon.
Dogs don't talk and don't explain their doings, dogs are animals. Before talking drives there should be discussion about reading a dog. Reading your own dog only on track is pretty hard. When the dog is really moving and doing what dogs do, it is very hard. I've even seen really "gourou" person telling me how my dog switched drive when pullin prong and when pulling leather. And that animal was just playing all the time. Actually it was just happyhappyhappy.
The only drive you can really see is when a male meets a female in heat. And alive.
J
Generally, this is my view, take it for what it's worth. I'll give a few drives and my definition of what they are:
- PACK DRIVE: The drive/instinct to obtain emotional contact with perceived pack members.
- HUNT DRIVE - The drive/instinct to pursue objects to source that have gone out of sight/scent.
- PREY DRIVE - Drive to chase, bite and kill prey.
- DEFENSE/PROTECTION DRIVE - The drive/instinct to defend/protect/guard the percieved pack or other objects.
- FIGHT DRIVE - Drive to take the physical conflict to the other party. (I don't consider fight drive a true drive because I don't believe it's a separate drive from all the others, i think it is a combination of defense and prey drives. Prey drive gives the dog confidence, the "take it to" part. Defense drive gives the strength of the attack, the desire to "drive away". By raising defense drive and prey drive through a series of exercises, you can raise the dog's desire to "take the fight" to the object.)
The basic rules for bringing out drives are as follows:
1. Prey drive is elicited by the use of motion -- hand signals (except Stay) -- a high-pitched tone of voice, or an object of attraction (stick, ball or food), chasing or being chased, and leaning backward with your body as the dog comes to you.
2. Pack drive is elicited by touching, praising and smiling at the dog, grooming, and playing and training with your body erect.
.. imagine your dog is walking obediently by your side guided by touch and voice, it is theoretically being controlled by 'pack drive', if a rabbit runs out and the dog chases it that is a switch to 'prey drive', it responds to your voice and touch again, back to 'pack drive', it picks up the scent of a fox and follows it, a switch to 'hunt drive'
all these can be observed.
Originally Posted by Lucky Star
Thanks very much for all this, Mini
. I was starting to think it was something completely obscure but I think it is about basically working with the dog by exploiting his natural instincts/drives. I agree with your comment about food and I also think that most of us quite probably naturally and intuitively work with the dog's own drives in order to train and indeed just communicate generally, but don't use this technique exclusively or give it a unique name.
I think there is a tendency for people too get too hung up on terminology, it can get in the way of learning sometimes. Many of us are using various named techniques without being aware of it .
|
|
|
|
Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,145
|
16-11-2006, 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Many of us are using various named techniques without being aware of it
.
|
|