I try to keep an open mind about e-collars ( never say never ) but honestly ! you two ( Denis and Lou ) are like a double act if you are so enlightened into the world of dog training then you've spent too much time in the kennels..learn some people skills

Many,Many people have great success with positive training..yes it can be done wrong and dogs do get hurt by the wrong use of choke collars etc but times are changing

I've never heard of a dog being 'clickered' to death

People are wary of e-collars ..and rightly so ..you don't want them available to be used by any Muppet ..but surely after all these years on forums have you not learned that you cannot expect people to listen to you once you have got their backs up !
I have had one or two sensible posts in the past from Denis ( without the links I might add ) and they do make for an interesting discussion ...but you can't just appear ,then tell everyone they know nothing and then try to enlighten them ..it just doesn't work
Peeps have their own standards that they train to -and might not need/want to train to the levels that you do.

(just for the record I've never used an e-collar but try to keep an open mind )

May I just enquire - what are the problem behaviours which necessitate the use of an electric collar, and which cannot be overcome by other means?

I can think of only one situation where I might, just might, possibly and reluctantly see an e-collar as the best way of ensuring my dogs' safety.

Murphy
Peeps have their own standards that they train to -and might not need/want to train to the levels that you do.

Clob
Sensible post Murphy, I disagree that for - environmental safety and legal requirement obedience training -pet owners do not ‘need’ to train to the standards I train or Lou trains and by the sound of it that you train to –

The biggest misconception about that area of training is that pet dogs are at less risk than working trained – they are at equall risk – if my dog is running towards a road or all the other potential hazards around the risk is the same.

What is almost invariably overlooked is the fact that often pet dogs spend many, many hours roaming around strange places with their owners and in the space of a couple of seconds, occurring maybe once a year that dog is in a life threatening behaviour – it MUST down and recall in those fractions in time.

You come across as dog literate, sensdible post, and you know as well as anyone here that there is no difference in the environmental and legal requirement obedience training for any dog, no matter what its purpose is, companion dog, SAR, protection, the risks when wandering round on exercise, sometimes for the whole day, are the same.

so again specifically what behaviour would be corrected that can not be corrected by other means?

It is cruel to use one of these collars in my opinon

I still wouldn't use one i would persevere with the dog
In some cases yes i would

I have just read the latest report commisiomed by the RSPCA and done by Emily Blackwell and Rachel Casey
Department of Clinical Veterinary Science
University of Bristol on this training method to be found HERE
It's also a fact that this sort of training cause fear in the subject dog.

Also how do you know what level of shock what to give the dog is this done on breed EG every begal gets level 3 every Rottie gets level 5? Or do just turn it up it it stops doing what it's doing?

What would you do if your collar did not work say malfunction/ battries run out/ dog out of range how would you get that dog to come back to you?

I would of thought that you would have trouble to get it back cause it knows if it goes back to you it's going to get shocked again.

Don't see how a dog can trust you if your hurting it.
How do you think they get mistreated dogs to trust again by shocking them.

(AWW poor dog that nasty man hurt you didn't he come lets have a fuss and a cuddle (dog stays in corner) (SHOCK COLLAR activates) Now come hear and lets have a cuddle i won't hurt you

That is no way to get trust and a bond in a dog
Because there are better and more humane ways of training dogs than to abouse your best friend

Most of us in the uk think it's cruel way of treating your dog.
I know that but your condoning what i call abuse thats why you get the responce you do

Your experiance training dogs is better than mine as you proberly do this for a living but that a side stll does not justify you shocking your dogs into submission

What breed of dog or just some dogs

You flatter me Denis ...and it'll get you no-where lol
My dogs aren't trained to high standards ..but enough to live in harmony with my family and enviroment , I'm happy they're happy

I think the difference is ..you are a proffessional trainer and people come to you and your 'wonder' collars and expect dramatic results and why shouldn't they ? I would if I was paying
But many of us are happy to bimble along as we are ..that doesn't make us wrong or failures ..just normal contented people ..yes we have problems along the way (doesn't everyone ) but we choose to tackle those problems as we see fit ...and thats what its all about ..choice ..freedom of choice and the e-collar is a choice for some and not for others

( I'll get off my box now I can hear music playing and birds twittering )

[QUOTE=uncllou]

deleted? sorry mixed up how to quote

[QUOTE=Wysiwyg]
All so very reassuring, so how do you explain this:

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle2.htm

I take it this is you - uncllou, training dogs with a very high level simply to teach food refusal?

Dearie dearie me. Not very good, is it?

Now will come the excuses, explanations and the rest

http://siriusdog.com/articles/food-r...aining-dog.htm

The last link is a more up to date one, copyright up to 2006, just in case we have a problem with um, the "older, nastier" collars as an excuse for such harsh training ...

I call that pretty horrible way to train a dog, myself.

I can give you one SB.
In the last couple of weeks I have seen one of these collars save a dogs life. It was a stock chaser and had killed 2 Lambs. The owner paid for the Lambs and the man sought help as he didnt want to lose his dog. He got one of these collars, and the SAME farmer agreed to let him try it in his fields!! He had tuition from the seller (dont know which company) and it worked! The dog pays no interest at all now. I believe it took 3 "shocks" to deter the behaviour. The dog is a Labrador, and thanks to the collar, he is still alive.
Dawn.
Quoted from an earlier post.

Shadow Boxer
May I just enquire - what are the problem behaviours which necessitate the use of an electric collar, and which cannot be overcome by other means?

Trouble 21
so again specifically what behaviour would be corrected that can not be corrected by other means?

Clob
Fair questions but one I don’t have time for a detailed and lengthy reply and I know a lot of people ( including me if I were exposed to it for the first time ) would not understand a simple reply. Maybe the best way to answer it is over a few posts so what you don’t understand you can ask step by step, instead of all the pointless ramblings going on, also it brings the posts back on topic, which is OC theory.

1]
There are 2 categories of e-collars, limited use and e-training collars, I use e-training collars. Limited use collars have below 16 levels generally but there is an intermediate collar which has 12 levels and I find it’s an excellent collar which could be used as a full training aid rather than for some limited uses.

The misconception about modern e-collars is inherent in the question(s) above, modern e-collars are not just for problem solving, that generation of collars is obsolete since 1998, 8 years ago.

2]
The problems which have been inherent in formal obedience training been since dogs became domesticated are that behaviour was not shaped properly in the formal obedience training stage, if it had been there is still one problem left in all mammals, that of sensory narrowing.

The other problem specifically to dogs is that anyone teaching a pet dog owner must have a method which that individual pet owner and that individual dog will be able to successfully apply.

The combination of failing to shape behaviours correctly in the first stage of formal obedience combined with the sensory narrowing activity has killed more animals & people in normal everyday situations than any other two factors.

There are 3 stages of training dogs.
1. Teaching.
2. Teaching corrections.
3. Teaching corrections with distractions.

Quiet dogs which readily comply only need stage one, stage 2 is usually best started at around 7-9 months in many males ( flexibility is needed on this) and after the first season in bitches.

Relevant to the questions asked are these and more factors specifically related to operant theory which most people have rammed into them by some trainers ( to add, I never do that ).

All 4 parts of operant theory can be consistently applied, under all conditions including timing, distance, distractions and everything else in the environment. For the first time in the history of canines with an e-training collar, that has never been possible before and that was an inherent training problem since Neanderthal times, so an e-training collar can provide the following at any point in time

Positive Punishment = something/anything added = decreases behaviour

Negative Punishment = something/anything is removed/witheld = decreases behaviour

Positive Reinforcement = something/anything added = increases behaviour

Negative Reinforcement = a non appetitive stimulus is removed = increases behaviour

As I said, when I was training pet dog owners I never use these terms but looking at the posts here and what I meet in parks etc pet owners are bombarded with the terms at a lot of training classes.

My principle method of use is as a negative reinforcer which gives a consistent positive reinforcer, under all circumstances and range every time = 100% consistency in applying a positive reinforcer and at the same time resolving the problem of sensory narrowing.

Therefor, useing an e-training collar in the formal obedience training stage shapes behaviours correctly in the first place, it is failing to shape the behaviours correctly in the first place which causes problem.

There is only one behaviour you are actually shaping and that is that the dog responds to a command under all circumstances, including distance and any distractions at any point in time. With most of the high drive dogs people will encounter sensory narrowing that is also overcome by useing the collar as a distraction, that in turn opens the senses to your own command stimulus.