Mish you are talking about training, as far as I am concerned Adam isn't he is talking about the use of e collars and for me they don't come under the category of training, they come under the category of dog abuse .

Adam

You take the line that the time the dog takes to get his treat is 'the suffering of stress'. And go on to say that is equal to the stress displayed by e collar training.

Now, if im excited and waiting for my dinner, true, it may raise my levels and be technically regarded as stress.
That relates to the sense of expectation, like santa at xmas.
But to say that is comparable to the stress i would receive from an electic shock and that i am 'suffering' is pushing the bounds of credibility somewhat.

It is a disingenuous argument.

However, let us assume your line is right and lets run with it.
You are saying that excitement over treats/toys masks the stress signs, which is why you see them on your e collar video but not in a treat training scenario (convenient get out clause their, btw ).

Then you own argument surely comes back to bite you?
If both experiences are unpleasant 'sufferings of stress' (my phrase) (btw, the implication is you are now admitting that the ecollar experience is an unpleasant suffering of stress), then if you scale it, surely the ecollar one is way worse?
As you say, the excitment (ie, positive joyous feelings associated with the expectation of getting food or play) is high enough to mask the stress signs the dog is really feeling.
Yet the ecollar one obviously cannot have a high enough level of joy/ pleasure/ excitement to motivate the dog to suppress his stress signs!
This means he cannot be overawed at the expectation of getting an electric zap!

Hence the irony of you own argument, which you are missing.

He mistakes training for luring perhaps?

There are times when luring is only helping them understand what to do though and then they get the reward for the action. So even at that....compared to zapping them just for doing the wrong thing, or for not doing something.

Agreed. But luring is only used to obtain the action a few times till the dog `gets` it. There is no anticipation (therefore no stress) because the dog is merely following the food. Nothing is required of the dog except that he reaches a position where he can eat the food.
When the necessary repetions have been done, the cue word or label learned (i.e. the action is captured) then the treat is discontinued because the action is the right thing to do when the dog hears that word. Therefore the action is self rewarding.
(Yes, the feelgood factor does wear off but that is why we reward intermittently to reinforce the action)
Inexperienced trainers don`t understand how a dog learns - they seem to think a reward is a negotiation.

In humans, there is stress - good stress and bad stress.

Bad stress is, for example, getting caught speeding, losing your job, having an accident etc

However, some causes of stress are ultimately pleasurable - getting married, moving house, working towards and meeting a deadline, completing a sporting challenge etc.

Surely the waiting and excitement of reward based training is 'good stress'; as something good will ultimately come from it?