Is there such thing as a dog's desire to please?

I've just finished reading The Culture Clash, which on the whole I enjoyed.

But right at the beginning of the book (and elsewhere) Jean Donaldson states categorically that she does not believe that any dog has a desire to please - that is, there is always an ulterior 'selfish' motive (i.e. expecting a treat or to avoid punishment).

But I'm not totally convinced; I think some dogs do like to please their humans without thought of treat or punishment, but purely because it makes them feel good. (which I suppose arguably could still be a selfish motive, but no more so than the feeling a human gets in, say, giving someone we love a present).

What are your views?

I think all sentient creatures act from `selfish` motives. It all depends on your interpretation of the word selfish. I take it to mean `in the best interests of whoever is making the decision`. Therefore - sacrificing your life to save a child is ultimately selfish as you are fulfilling the drive to continue your species and obeying the morals and mores of your culture - which make you feel like that is the `right` thing to do. So you are acting for yourself.
Dogs are (thankfully) a lot more straightforward than us. They do stuff because it makes them feel good (which is a reward in itself) and don`t do stuff if it doesn`t. Totally selfish. But pleasing you makes them feel good - what`s wrong with that?

Interesting thought but I feel they do have a desire to please - a friends dog started agility and was doing quite well but lost the energy and enthusiasm but still did it it was like well you enjoy it so will do it for you!

My friend was going to give up - finally the dog was diagnosed with an underactive thyroid - now she is back to her energetic and enthuiastic doggy again - so I feel this dog continued purely to 'please' her owner.

Nobody 'forced' her to do it = she didn't have to do it but continued to make her owner happy.

Her owner really was going to give up but there were other things that suggested that something wasn't quite right with the dog - put on weight - no energy (a young Gordon btw!!)

Maybe she wanted to do it but wasn't able? I think some dogs like to please - am sure Max does - maybe I just like to think that? Perhaps they do it for alteria motives?

This has really got my brain ticking to be honest - what happens if they don't get a treat/reward? Just a smile is that to please or their reward?

Mmmm interesting, i suppose the desire to please might come from the desire to be rewarded rather than punished. Wonder if that is the same thing.

Wonder what a desire to please is, if i wish to please someone i suppose i want to be rewarded, make them like me or be pleased with me, or not hurt me or to make them feel good. I pressume that dogs can't empathise so can't predict what would make us feel good or even how it feels for us to feel good, or even what makes us happy....however much we would like to think that they can.

So i suppose that they are looking for rewards rather than a desire to please, although the both can look very similar. I suppose really there behaviour is a list of behaviours they have found to be rewarding.

yes i think some do. Some dogs just like to make you happy!

How do they know they have made you happy though? By your reactions, praising/stroking, which i acts as a reward so how can we tell they are doing it for your pleasure rather than the reward of the reaction you show when you are pleased?

It's a difficult one!

I think so, yes

That's what I think, but I certainly got the impression from the book that Jean Donaldson didn't agree - she didn't seem to think that pleasing you was sufficient reward, i.e. the fact that you were pleased would lead to something more for them - be it positive (food etc.) or lack of negative (i.e. avoiding punishment).

It got me thinking too, especially, like you, whether it was just because I wanted it to be that they do have a desire to please.

That is effectively what the book was saying. What I'm arguing is that I think for some dogs the 'reward' is you being happy - that making you happy makes them feel good - not because they then think a treat might be coming (or because physical punishment has been avoided).

me too

I think some of it will be in your reactions - e.g. stroking/praising etc, but not necessarily all.

But as for how they know you are happy - many dogs seem to know their owners moods - e.g. how many times do we tell owners not to get stressed because it will be passed on to the dog?

yep i see what you are saying, but i think there must be a very fine line, and i wonder if it can ever be proved. I think the human being happy can inadvertently be a reward for the dog......but one which we might not recognise.