Depends on what position you're speaking from. My experience SHOWS me that I have made a good choice for my dogs, also other people's similar experiences SHOW me once again that I am not wrong. Its a matter of choice after all, less than a century ago 'pet food' was horsemeat or butchers scraps, then during the Depression Mr Spratt found a way to make a good living by making 'pet food' from grains and he, and several others, never looked back. Whether it has done the dogs the great service it did their bank accounts is another matter. I am happy that not feeding grains and feeding what is appropriate to them is the right thing for ME to do.

This may well be true, but you cannot get away from the fact that dogs are not designed to eat such a high carbohydrate food - nor are we. The modern western diet is loaded with carbs and yet millions of us seemingly thrive on a diet of Macdonalds ... ipso facto, millions of dogs seemingly thrive on commercial dog foods, but most of them, or perhaps to be fairer a lot of them, are not good, not the best they could be. They survive, and many of them indeed live a long time, but do they reach their true potential? I doubt it ... just like us humans who live of an unhealthy diet laden with refined carbohydrate, we are alive but we are certainly not healthy. We will probably be overweight, spotty, prone to constipation or bouts of IBS, we will be tired, irritable, lacking in energy. But for sure, we are alive. But this is not thriving, this is just going through the motions (no pun intended!).

There was strong selective pressure on the digestive systems of the wolves that became dogs. The food they got from being around humans contained a lot of starch. They evolved more enzymes for starch digestion. The selective pressure on dentation was much weaker. Dogs' teeth are not suited for grazing, and their molars aren't great for maceration of seeds with tough outer layers. But they are quite adequate for human waste of many sorts. Plus, dogs probably remained opportunistic carnivores in the course of the evolution from wolf to dog. Many pet dogs will still eat the occasional mouse, rabbit, or squirrel, given the opportunity.
Note, there are differences between wolves teeth and dogs' teeth. These suggest that dogs are less carnivore than wolves. I'm quoting from a wolfdog site that lists differences between dogs and wolves: "7) Wolves’ canine teeth are very large and they are more curved and thicker than the typical domestic dogs teeth are, they can reach lengths up to just over a couple inches long. They are adapted to crush huge bones in one crunch. Claws and Jaws work together to hold down the meat, (claws which also can rip up hide) and jaws to cut/slice, shred, and break bone."
http://yamnuskawolfdogsanctuary.com/...lves-and-dogs/

I think the dention arguement is pretty invalid- if you look at giant panda's whose diet is something like 90% vegetarian and gorilla's whose diet is pretty much vegetarian while they show a very much carnivorous dention.

The comparison between dogs and cats is also invalid.
Dogs are not obligate carnivores whereas cats are.

By the same arguement, the 15 year old dog I took in last year, having been fed on pedigree chum and cheap mixer all his life, and his playmate, a 16 year old who was fed cooked cheap sausages and pedigree chum are doing pretty well and none of the above descriptions but lean, happy and still playing a year on, it may be a bit stiff and stilted but they regularly play together.
Admittedly, their coats are much better after being moved onto salmon and potato dry food and naturesdiet, but any long term health/ damaged occurred many years ago.

Hey the raw folk here are being very reasonable in the grand scheme, go read some of the dedicated raw/BARF boards, the level of hostility they possess towards anyone that dares challenge their beliefs is a sight to behold!

I've frequently mulled over the idea of trialling it but the logistics are a bit of an issue when you're feeding a quartet of 50kg bruisers. Personally I've got nothing against the diet but some of its advocates strike me as a little...firm in their beliefs...

The point is, I thought this thread was for non raw feeder, if I were to go to a pro raw feeder site I would expect it. To be fair when I asked for good quality food and didn't want to feed raw, I was given good advice. I just get angry when people are pressurised into doing anything, because they are made to feel inadequate.

My girls weigh in at around that mark, and there are 4 of them, as long as you're organised its not a problem. I'm quite happy that I've made the right decisions, which were based purely on my observations over the years as a dog owner. I did feed commercial in the 1970's but by the 1980's I was begining to question the rights and wrongs of it, did my own research, at a time when most people weren't even aware of scrapies and then later on mad cow disease, and that organs from these sick animals were finding their way into the commercial pet food industry, just at a time when all of a sudden there was a sudden rise in dog attacks and dog aggression. If people feel that feeding their dog is just dipping a measuring cup into a sack of dried food, that is up to them. I happen to think that feeding my dogs is ensuring that what they eat is appropriate for them and their needs. Would you feed your child an unremitting diet of McDonalds and cereals, laced with E numbers and sugars or would you take the time and trouble to find out what is a better quality diet for them.

If I noticed bowel issues in my dogs, or anything else that seemed of significance... I'd certainly address it. My statement was made... like others here... based only on experience. The difference is that I don't shoot down raw feeders. I think raw is fine when done properly and given to dogs that enjoy it and do well on it. But nobody is going to tell me the diets make for really sickly and short lived pets... for that is certainly not the case here. It's not the case for many others, either.

I can think of several raw feeders on this very site who had or have sickly or short lived dogs. Go on about it as you like... but I mean a lot of it is conjecture. BTW, the cats eat grain free Merrick kibble. Not all kibble is loaded or even contains grain, so that needs to be remembered before making statements about kibble feeders loading their dogs with grains.

Where does you meat for your dogs come from, isn't ot the same source as meat for commercial food?