First of all line breeding and in breeding are not the same at all. In breeding would be something like a father/daughter mating, or brother/sister. The litter I have just bred is line bred, they have a COE of 3% so it can be done. I too have found a computer programme to be well worth the investment, I found Breeders Assistant to be invaluable, plus asking questions off as many people as I could to ascertain what was truth and what was fiction
As for the HD question, I believe that if enough people get on board with the same purpose, in this case to drive the hip score of a breed down, it can be done. But everyone has to buy into that purpose, otherwise you will fail. By being meticulous on the environmental side of the hip problem and using males with a low score, a small group of us have made a difference to this. So I am pretty sure a well known KC recognised breed could also achieve this, there would be wider access to unrelated males for a start, so surely if we can make a difference with our small gene pool, then it can be done.
It is all down to the breeders, and the purchasers of the puppies, and whether the breeders are prepared to educate potential puppy owners on the advisability of taking on a puppy from non tested parents with no health history.

I guess this is a case of you say Potato I say Pohtatoe.

But I do agree if we make an effort we can start to eradicate or at least reduce the incidences of something like HD if we start being particular who is bred with whom.

So do you think totally outcrossing , with no common ancestors is the way forward for healthier dogs.

Unless you use linebreeding you aren't going to keep type, so you like Boxers, but if your new boxer puppy didn't look like a boxer you wouldn't like it, so as well as juggling health tests etc you also have to try for the lowest COE possible whilst still maintaining your type, you shouldn't be putting type above health though, inbreeding does get you type, but you keep inbreeding at your breed's peril, because eventually small genetic health problems start arising, then they are no longer small because you are breeding same to same all the time so you start with the heart problems, epilepsty, cleft palate to name a few, so you need to outcross into a different line to avoid this. However when you do that you could well be introducing new health problems that your line never suffered from before, so you have to balance those risks with the risk of keep inbreeding and getting even worse health problems. Line breeding does keep type, you do know what you have got healthwise in the main, but also you do have the benefit of different dogs from different lines in your family tree, and by asking the right questions from other breeders you can ascertain if those dogs from different lines have bought anything bad to the party. It may be that they haven't, but pairing them with yours may be a bad pairing and it could bring forward something recessive that both dogs were carrying in the background that no one knew about. You can go for a complete outcross where there are no or very few common ancestors, this again can bring in problems, but it can work wonderfully well in the long term as your progeny will then be compatible to other dogs that were hitherto out of the question due to a similar ancestry with your older breeding dogs.

Depends by what you are meaning by outcrossing.

Do I think we should use dogs who are not related but who are tested and found to be healthy, then yes.

Obviously you have to do your homework and whilst there are no guarentees in life it surely has to be better than using the same health compromised lines time and time again.

Heck if you need a human comparison take a look at the Egyptian Pharoahs, they frequently married their siblings which led to severe deformities. Tutankhamun the most famous Pharoah of all could barely walk thanks to deformites caused by this practice. This was not just a one off, it happened time and time again, which is what is happening in some lines of dogs.

Comparing ancient Egyptians to dogs of today is a little extreme.... can you show evidence of such intense inbreeding in our breeds today............ generations of close inbreeding, mother to daughter, brother to sister father to daughter, generation after generation after generation .

I think you will find with most of our breeds today, the gene pools are big enough to avoid this type of breeding, I cant think of any breeder I know who would even contemplate such close breeding

You will find a common ancestor cropping up in pedigrees, but this is not to be confused with close inbreeding.

You compare the state of our UK Boxer to that of the German one, (who have stringent testing) that testing has not eradicated hip or heart problems in their lines... they still have HD, and I believe Cardiomyopathy is still found in the breed there.

Sadly we are dealing with living beings, not machines, and no matter what precautions we take, problems crop up.

I am for all for health testing , but I am not under the allusion that it is going to produce super dogs that are free from health issues.

The more we know and can test for the better, the better informed we can be, BUT its not going to stop dog A from suffering in its future if environment plays its part.

I breed Boxers all from 6generations are Heart tested either a H0 or a H1.i have never owned/bred a boxer with HD,I do my upmost to educate new puppy owners regards the dangers of certain things that can and do affect a boxer,Going up or down the stairs can give them conclaved chests,certain stairs that turn at a Angle can and does cause huge wear n tear on the hips.Displacemment is common in boxers that have been allowed to use the stairs as a race track.I don't do any health tests apart from Heart.ive no known lines to JKD or HD perhaps its just luck,but breeding from the best I have seemed to have stood me in good stead.

I would be interested to know more about the "deafness" they have quoted. Are they basing that on White Boxers or Boxers as a breed. In nearly 30 years with Boxers (& rescue) i have only ever come across one that was totally deaf & one that was bilaterally deaf. I have two White Boxers & both have perfect hearing

Regards the inbreeding of the Egyptian Pharoahs, yes it is an extreme example. However, I used to to show that if you constantly use related individuals within any family, be it human or dog you will eventually get problems arising.

Regards the issue of the German breeders still having incidences of Cardiomyopathy. No this problem has not been eradicated, yet. But by being more selective over who you breed to whom, eventually the incidences will become less and less frequent and that can only be a good thing. Hopefully one day it will be so rare as to be considered not an issue of great concern.

Regards Superdogs, I don't expect, want a superdog, just one that is healthy, from day one of its life, not carrying the baggage of its forebears.

As for the environment, I would like to answer this in my response to PAM.



PAM I commend you for the tests you are carrying out. But may I ask, do you actually test your Boxers for HD or are you simply assuming because they show no outward signs that they don't have it.

As for the environmental factors, oh you are so right how this can play a part in damage to a young dogs limbs etc. For instance it is not wise to run a dog of any breed beside a bicycle (for instance) until they are at least 18 months of age.
However, might not an unscupulous breeder use the environmental wild card by way of excusing a hereditary disease.

The gene for deafness is more prevalent from what I gather in White Boxers, however, from what I garner (from what I have read) just with any hereditary disease, some dogs may suffer from it, some may not, even within the same litter.

When you are looking at the hip scores you can tell which is environmental and which is hereditary