Sarcasm on this thread and in this forum is unnecessary and uncalled for as is being patronising and demeaning. You should, perhaps,take a leaf out of Lou's book, you may get furthur with people. As for spelling your name wrong...I'm sorry, I don't think I did.

I don't see you answering my question though. If the manufacturers say it shouldn't be usedd in aggressive and fearful cases of behaviour management, why are you using it in such cases??????

Ailsa
I don't see you answering my question though. If the manufacturers say it shouldn't be usedd in aggressive and fearful cases of behaviour management, why are you using it in such cases??????

Clob
Yes I ansered it wice before, this is the last time, it is the training methods you do not understand.

Quote Clob (again)
Yes all manufacturers state that, but, it does not mean e-collars cannot be ‘used -
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>>>as ONE OF the training aids in cases of aggression’<<<
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– in cases of aggression they all recommend you get a trainer with knowledge and experience of aggressive dogs,
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>>> you do not buy an e-collar and let if off if the dog starts an aggressive episode, <<<
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neither should you tug on a lead if the dog starts an aggressive episode.

But Clob, you are allowing a couple of people to order one and then use it on a dog who, by your own admission, doesn't need it. They recommend TRAINING not using an ecollar Clob.
Actually, you answered one time and I disregarded it because you'd shot yourself in the foot.
There is no need for sarcasm on here, nor is there any need for you 'yelling' your post at me.
I'm bowing out here and now as when discussions get like this, they are no longer discussions.
You are doing your 'cause' no good at all Clob.
I remain, totally against these devices and this discussion has served only to convince me that I'm right.

Without the specifics of this case, it's very difficult to make too many obejective comments. Whenever a dog is showing this type of 'aggression?', all factors need to be considered, not least of which is the owner's input into the ongoing problem.

However, a couple of comments:

An interesting comment is 'for this couple and that dog combination the e-collar is ideal' - I would be interested to know how that conclusion has been drawn, especially as the trainer has evaluated that he personally wouldn't waste his money on an e-collar.

It's tempting to draw the conclusion that the 'training' problem in this particular case is lack of owner compliance rather than the dog not responding?

This last comment is quite disturbing:

"There is no fee unless they get results, why should there be"?

If they don't get results and the problem gets worse, there is a good possibility that the dog will pay the ultimate price. I hope it works out Denis, I truly do - for the dog's sake.

Alisia
But Clob, you are allowing a couple of people to order one and then use it on a dog who,

Clob
No Alisia, I am not allowing anything, I do not have the right to stop people buying anything. I am aware you are against democracy and the rights of the individual to choose, well these peope have chosen, if that is against your will, well tough.

Alisia
by your own admission, doesn't need it.

Clob
No Alisia, this is what Idid say > I would not wast my money on an e-collar if it were my dog <. However, as I have a collar anyway so I would use it for somethings to the benefit of the dog, if the dog were mine.

Alisia
They recommend TRAINING not using an ecollar Clob.[/I]

Clob
Sorry I dont understand that, who is 'They' who recomend not using and e-collar? -You lost me again, below are.

Tri-Tronics recomendations.
Because the causes of aggression can be so varied and situations so unique we recommend that you consult knowledgeable professional trainer who has experience with aggressive dogs. We do not recommend that you use the remote trainer to treat your dog’s aggression without first getting professional help.
Tri-Tronics.

Just another quick thought, I take it you have eliminated allergy and 'Westie jaw' conditions before embarking on any training plan for this dog as both are renowned for causing touch sensitivity in Westies

Brierley
This last comment is quite disturbing:

Clob
I dont find it disturbing.

However, by way of apology, sorry you have been thrown into the abyss of the disturbed - it was unintentional.

Sorry I'm slightly confused, is Doogle a forum? I was more interested in the actual staffie problem. I was thinking of another staffie on another site, this one was 8 months old though and was at classes although not sure what classes. It was attacked and became dog aggressive, but the owner took that pup to DavidAppleby who sorted it out and there was an update on the good progress made and so on.
(So a happy ending to that case given by a positive trainer/behaviourist).

My immediate thoughts too!

The success of a behaviour programme can hinge on this

I take it the dog has had a full vet check, and also that anyone involved in training him has full insurance in case anything goes wrong? For protection of both trainer and client!

If you are not training dogs on a regular basis, you probably wouldn't have insurance for this though?

Unfortunately it's one thing to have experience of aggressive dogs, but quite another to understand the causes of aggression, and to understand how the dog's brain works, the physiology of aggression and so on.

For example, someone involved in manwork might "understand" aggression from one viewpoint, but would not be ideal to get to grips with a dog showing intense fear aggression or one who was aggressive due to medication, hypothyroid conditions etc etc etc.

For that I believe you do need a good behaviourist who has hands on as well as a deep understanding in the scientific side as to how dogs learn, the canine brain etc.

I hope you take my point.