Oh, I absolutely agree with you there

It can't be JF - I've found the bit about her dog being stared at but she also criticises JF's book and calls it hogwash.

LuckyStar
It can't be JF - I've found the bit about her dog being stared at but she also criticises JF's book and calls it hogwash.

Clob
Can you PM me the google link LS...I did not understand this bit "It can't be JF"

Done
It's probably my mistake - I think you might have meant MMLady was discussing JF, not that she was JF - so apologies if so.

Minihahah I went back and edited my post that had Lucky Star's comments attributed to you. I would have done it earlier but didn't realize that this forum allowed edits at a much later time.

Apologies again.

Some folks think that it's the responsibility of my side of the aisle to post scientific articles to support our comments. I've already pointed out the fallacy of that opinion but here are some interesting facts regarding the "cardiac fibrillation" question.

A defibrillator puts out about 360 joules. A TENS machine at it's highest setting puts out about 6 joules. An Ecollar at its highest setting puts out about .000005 joules. Nowhere near enough to do as has been claimed by those opposed to Ecollars.

Ever hear of those "Abdominal Energizer" machines? They're supposed to build up your stomach muscles by "stimulating" them by sending an electronic stim. They put out over 3,000 times the level of stim that an Ecollar does.

Ever give yourself a shock by walking across a carpet and then reaching out to touch a door knob? At 50% humidity that's more than twice the voltage given off by an Ecollar set at its highest level. At low humidity levels it's about nine times more powerful than the Ecollar.

As to "burns;" Ecollars emit in the area of 100mA about the same as electronic stim devices used in human medicine (the TENS machine for example). Organic damage as a result of direct impact of the current is excluded. These medical devices don't cause "changes in the heart, respiration rate or GI disorders" and neither do Ecollars.

If someone thinks that they do, it's up to them to prove it. To think that the burden is on those who say it doesn't happen is illogical.

There's a compilation of studies supporting Ecollars available online. If anyone wants the link, please PM me.

duboing
Oh, and judging by your use of those well known SI units - bounces per sec - in that article, I can see we're dealing with some really intellectual scientific research. NOT.

Clob
The article duboing refers to is a description & explanation of what static electro pulse muscle stimulation is, that is what an e-collar emits, not an electric shock. There are also some links to a variety of electro pulse muscle stimulation devices, they all use the same electro muscle stimulation technology as e-collars and illustrates e-collars in their technologial context.

Yes you are right duboing, it is not intended as a scientific text paper, it is the only available, easy to understand description of what electro pulse muscle stimulation is and anyone can get a clear, reasonable understanding by reading it.

The page and link to the article is below, below that and for ‘duboings’ benefit, are some electro scientific facts, just for duboing.

Article - Clob Posted 14-06-2006, 01:12 PM on P11 of this post.
http://www.dogweb.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37415&page=11

Scientific:
The basic unit of stimulation is a single pulse that lasts 50 microseconds. A microsecond is one thousandth of one thousandth of a second.There are also milliseconds,which are just one thousandth of one second. All collars were tested under a 100k ohm load.

Tri Tronics Pro 500.
Low momentary is a single pulse lasting less than 50 microseconds.
Medium momentary is 6 of those pulses, lasting a total time of 16 milliseconds.
High momentary is more pulses (the number is missing from my notes!) and the total time is 112 milliseconds.

Tri-Tronics Pro 200.
The single pulse on this collar is 48 microseconds.
Low was one single pulse, 48 microseconds
Medium was 6 pulses lasting total 16 milliseconds
High was more pulses lasting 113.6 milliseconds
We didn't test the voltages on this one.

Dogtra 250 (not available in UK),
Sixty levels
The nick button produces a single pulse lasting 10 milliseconds.

D. T. Systems Ultra-e 2010
Description:
Pulses are always in groups of 4.
Overall duration of pulse group: 13 milliseconds
Time between pulses in group: 4 milliseconds
Pulse frequency: 250 Hz
Pulse Group cycle time on continuous: 168 milliseconds
Pulse Group frequency on continuous: 5.95 Hz
Level setting varies pulse voltage only, does not change duration.

Thanks for that Lucky Star

Wiziwig
I'm not sure why you so dislike positive trainers. Have you had a bad experience yourself or something?

Clob
I already partially answered that.
Clob 16th June 08:44 PM
http://www.dogweb.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37415&page=25

Wiziwig
I've never in all my life heard of what you are saying, people going up to dogs and barking in their face; sounds more like the sort of thing one US behaviourist might do (name of Sue) but no-one here at all. Do you have any proof or is this just hearsay? and when did it happen

Clob
Yes, below:

If that's true it is really peculiar. Not being funny but the person you are thinking of did die of a brain tumour and he did have problems due to that, perhaps that was the reason. I know he was acting out of character before it was diagnosed although this is obviously a very sensitive subject so I shall say no more on it.

If you read his books, he spent a lot of time saving dogs who growled, barked etc. and who appeared "vicious" or "aggressive". I also know one person who actually worked with him, for a time, and know this is true. He did save dogs. So I have no idea why he should do any different apart from maybe the thougth I mentioned above.

Do you have any more info on the staffie you mentioned as being part of the info you sent to DEFRA? I've asked before but think you missed it.