First of all thank you for such an eloquent, non patronising answer.

I'm not going to enter into answering it all...just 'my bits'.


I too, have people asking me, on a daily basis, how I get my dogs to be so well behaved. I have lost count of the times I have been asked for help and advice and to be perfectly honest, I'm now so known out and about I could probably set up a small business and cash in on it. All with no ecollar in sight.

As for dogs chasing game or vehicles. I know all tooo well about this, having owned Border Collies for a long time.
NO DOG SHOULD EVER HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET NEAR LIVESTOCK . If the dog is known for chasing anything, it should be kept on lead at all times ( all dogs should be onlead at all times near livestock unless they are working it.End of. It's the law. Not doing this discussion again as I'm bored of it.) Dogs chase instinct can be channnelled...using kind methods. No need for an ecollar here.

Finally, as for training dogs not to touch food they haven't been given and told to eat. Sorry...no need for an ecollar there either. It's a pretty easy thing to do. Benn there seen it done it got the tshirt.
As for dogs eating something thrown into the yard....if they are high risk dogs for things like that, they shouldn't be left out in the first place, in this day and age people are just as likely to shoot them, it's more reliable...

Your response was eloquent and interesting and you put a good case forward, but it still boils down to this...there is no need for ecollars in my opinion.

Borderdawn
Two very patient men here, given the critisising they are having thrown at them!

Clob
Its not a case of patience its a case of time

- No one has given any critism that I have seen - many people have simply made things up and anyone reabing this (which I might add is substantial ) can see quite cleary that people simply make things up and give nothing to support what they say.

Of wiziwigs lates bit of sillyness, (now that I know what kind and reason for food refusal she is quoting ) - she was quoting a situation where there are real life risks of poisoned food being left and the owner is absent from the dog.

Wiziwig thinks its better to take chance and let the dog pick up poison - and die what could be a drawn out excrutiating death.

If my own dogs had to be in that situation I would not hesitate for one moment to proof at high levels, that would ensure they had adequate defence mechanisms to cope with an attack.

Dogs owned by people like Wiziwig would simply live in a life threatening situation and have no defence mechanisms of any kind to what would be a reward stimulus (poisoned food), it was mentioned that "dogs dont choose", in this situation I choose life for my dogs, Wiziwig preferes death for theirs.

So for me to even think that what Wiziwig has said is critisism of me, I think people can read for themselves as to the rational of thought.

As I said, time is short but, of the things she has simply made up heres two - e-collars are not banned either in Germany or Oz. In Oz in some states a vet has to give a prescription for anti barks and in one I think a prescription for trainers

- Wiziwig just makes things up and does not support them, so I dont interpret anything she says as a critism about me because I am not the one making anything up.

Dawn
As a matter of interest, knowing that the misuse of choke chains, collars and harnesses have all caused the deaths of dogs, have there been any recorded deaths due to the misuse of an Ecollar?

Clob
No, not only that there is no substantiated cases of anything except necrosis sores. If you leave the collars on longer than stated in instructions some dogs might get start to get red marks.

If they do you need a either a special pad as Lou said somewhere, if not they can get necrosis due to being sensitive to stainless steel and pressure, we know it as bedsores, the other option is get a refund as the collar is unsuitable for the do -

I have never heard of any dogs I have come accross haveing problems and the instructions on every collar warn you to check the dog in early stages of use as a precaution, Im sure Wiziwig will come up with a couple of dozen 'cases'.

Any cases quoted are just made up unless verified by an e-specliaist.

As long as it takes no time on training a dog as each are differant as you some dogs are more intelgent than others just like in humans everyone is differant

When the dog has been deemed unrehomeable when it had been used in dog fighting or person agressive only in these case would i say PTS.

The case that you have quoted is just a rescue/ rehome (No link provide aplos if edited by mods) Not a rescuce of an abused dog that has lost it's trust in humans would you use a E collar in this instance?

Do you think it would be possable for uncllou or clob to post a link to an AVI so that we can see these E collars in action and how they affect the dogs when used?
TalKing and describing is ok but seeing and hearing is loads better. I'm sure you got some video of you in action with your dogs or customers dogs.

With seeing the AVI if you provide one it will get the image out of my head of ODIE in Garfield the movie when a shock collar was used on him (not a E collar) to get him to perform a trick i know it was an exaggeration on the effect but thats what i keep on seeing.

Leo
The case that you have quoted is just a rescue/ rehome (No link provide aplos if edited by mods) Not a rescuce of an abused dog that has lost it's trust in humans would you use a E collar in this instance?

Clob
I used an electric shock collar in 1976 on a human aggressive Dobe which I rescued, it was the last resort in an intensive training program, it did work and the dog lived a great life afterwards but those collars probably harmed as many dogs as they helped, that was the whole point of them, when all else failed.

– collars are not used for the aggression itself, they are used as a part of a training method for aggression along with many many other things, desensitisation is the foundation of such a situation.
–
– Personally I would not take on some breeds if they had interdog aggression, e-collars would not be much use for any secure success, the same applies to anything else, the dogs would be a welfare risk to other dogs.

Leo
Do you think it would be possible for uncllou or clob to post a link to an AVI so that we can see these E collars in action and how they affect the dogs when used?

Clob
Do you mean liinks to video clips? I have some somewhere – if you want I can send you a DVD providing you return it –

No need for your address I can send it to your nearest main post office and simply address it to - your name - ‘poste restante, and whatever your nearest main PO is.

Best wached with the sound down first and see if you can tell when the collar is being used-I have never yet had anyone fathom out when a stim is being used until they watch it with the sound on and the trainer says so.

PS- That DVD covers all 3 collars-training-anti-barks & boudary fences.

...just so LS and I was reluctant to get involved in this thread for that reason, by perpetuating this thread we are providing the publicity craved. Certain people will attempt to keep this thread open as long as possible in order to publicize the collars. I have no desire to give extra publicity to/ encourage people to waste money on/ or worse still to do irreparable damage to their dogs by using these collars .

I will just make a couple of points for the sake of adding balance to the fanatical fervor with which these collars are being promoted.

Firstly Lou mentions TENS and seems to be making a comparison between this system and the collars..
I have used TENS (Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation) on many occasions for the purpose of pain relief, TENS acts by delivering small electrical pulses to the body via electrodes placed on the skin, these pulses are intended to affect the way pain signals are sent to the brain. Pain signals reach the brain by way of nerves and the spinal cord. If pain signals can be blocked then the brain will receive fewer signals from the source of the pain therefore we feel less pain.
TENS machines are thought to work in two ways.

• When the machine is set on a high pulse rate (90-130 Hz) it triggers the 'pain gate' to close. This is thought to block a pain nerve pathway to the brain. This is the normal method of use.
• When the machine is set on a low pulse rate (2-5 Hz) it stimulates the body to make its own pain easing chemicals called endorphins. These act a bit like morphine to block pain signals.

The TENS machine produces a sort of tingling sensation on the skin, that is all. I rarely found it worked, such a system would by ineffectual as a training aid for a dog..

Now returning to the collars, in order for them to be effective they would need to give off some sensation or cause some discomfort to the dog, if they don't there is no point in using them Ask yourself this, do you want to cause your dog pain or discomfort when training when there are alterative ways of training that don't have this effect ? Can you imagine something that causes pain or discomfort to a dog in the hands of the wrong person?

I know if I stick pins in a dog I can make it move from a chair, I am also aware that I can train my dog not to get up on the chair in the first place ..so being a compassionate human being wishing to maintain the bond I have with my dog I will choose the latter method.

...and there we have it..Clob admits the collars can be painful.

So to sum up , which ever way I look at it these collars are not my cup of tea. If they don't cause pain or a sensation to the dog they don't work, if they do cause pain and I can use other methods to train I am a sadist using these collars !


Don't bother to reply to this post thank you Clob or Lou ,nothing you say influences me, I have read all your propaganda about the collars before ad neausium ..

Yes i do the site below allow you to upload them and then you post the links to them most have size restrictions on them the first link has 20 mb restriction
ZIPPY VIDEOS

The other not sure of the size limit cause it's changed hands but they still do host for free.
vidac

Thanks for the offer for the DVD i will properly take you up on that but i'm going away on saturday for 2 weeks so i'll leave it till i get back thank you for your offer

Isn't the promotion of a device that the UK Kennel Club, the UK Assoc. of Pet Dog Trainers and the UK Dogs Trust are all actively campaigning against a bit of a lost cause ? Personally I give more credence to all those UK experts than two americans who apparently sell them.

Seems a bit like the US gun lobby - "but they're wonderful things and fine as long as they're not abused. They save lives you know. Oh, and can I sell you one ?"

Keep things like that under strict licence and for use by fully-trained professionals for extreme situations only, IMO.

Now, anyone got a good recipe for liver cake ?

Mini is right - I am not going to bother to repeat myself over and over again. I have made my points and will not be influenced either.

However, I would like to make a request of the two gentlemen. You keep throwing around the word:'science' and insisting that other people's work and observations are not 'scientific'.

My education is in science and I worked in science, including study directing, regulatory affairs and experimental research; which included contributing to scientific papers, reports and posters. Many of my friends are scientists and my husband is a long-standing scientist with a scientific textbook under his belt. I have yet to see anything you have written that could possibly come near to being called 'science'.

Please provide details of studies which you have carried out to support all your claims with respect to the use of e-collars on dogs. Just quoting your experience of training dogs in the past isn't scientific enough.

Naturally you will be able to show that these studies will have been carried out to appropriate standards in properly audited scientific environments, using properly validated experimental techniques.

You will be able to demonstrate that SOP's were followed, staff trained to appropriate levels and signed off for competence, a good and appropriate number of subjects used and the experiments shown to give reproducible results which have been shown to be statistically significant by statistical analysis.

I would like to see that the studies and facilities were inspected by and quality assured by the relevant accreditation and regulatory bodies.

Your studies will no doubt include dog physiological data to show that the dogs are unharmed in terms of Metabolic, Biochemical, cardiovascular and general health.

Can I also see peer-reviewed scientific papers reporting the results and conclusions of your studies?

Minihaha Misquoted Cob..Below:
Originally Posted by Clob
I have never said an e-collar could not be painful,

Minihaha
..and there we have it..Clob admits the collars can be painful.

Cob
As I said, thousands of rational people are reading this post and a handful of irrational people posting here – changing the context of what someone said ( as opposed to convenient editing) deliberately designed to mislead quite literally means the person misquoting is unreliable at best and cannot be taken seriously at all.

E-collars are the safest training aid of all time and the least, in your words not mine,“painful” - in fact if they were painful they not only would not work, they could not work!

.[QUOTE=Clob]Wizwig response part 1.

Wiziwig
Electric collars are able to go from 0-100 so you cannot say Clobb that they cannot be painful.

Clob
I have never said an e-collar could not be painful, not only that I have never come across any training aid which cannot be painful if misused and many in normal use are both dangerous and painfull, ( you are talking about misuse of training aids, for reasons unknown ) but the fact that you isolated an e-collar suggest that you are familiar with the dangers and pain caused by all canine equipment in normal use, there is no way you can separate one of them, you can only put them in context and asses them by comparison.

Taking your topic of misuse of canine training aids ( off topic but I am getting used to it ).

1. Treats
Treats, if you throw a treat onto the road the dog might get hit by car, if you overfeed treats, as many do, you will almost certainly have al kinds of long term health problems, bones, joints, heart, reduction of a healthy life expectancy, if a dog is running off into a dangerous situation, refuses recall relying on offering a treat for recall could end up the dogs death.

2. Collar and lead use.
a]
Studies carried out on dogs pulling on collars and leads show 92% out of 400 dogs had neck, larynx and other damage (Hallgren 1991), dogs are gagging all the time if they pull on collars.

b]
Quote:
“Hi! I have a 14 week old bedlington whippet who is pulling on the lead until he chokes. I have never had a dog before and don't know what to do. I'm really scared he'll injure his throat”

3. Halties
I cannot post links so below are two pet owner comments out of thousands of examples of Halties in normal use.

a] Quote:
“Help my dog will not stop clawing at his halti whan where out he is starting to make his face bleed I keep on pulling him up and saying no but its the same 2 mins later its worse when we see another dog”

b] Quote: (someone recommended a head collar for pulling)
“Headcollar - he was the one who developed a bleed behind the eye last time we tried that - so no.”

c] Quote:
“For the last three weeks he has been on a halti which is now hurting him so badly, it does not stop him pulling. He has had no training at all, fights against sits, etc. On the halti he salivates so much there are pools of water all around him.”

3. Balls
a] Chihaua puppy.
“ Xxxx loved to chase the ball but I thought he was over the other side of the garden, Kira went to get the ball as did Xxxx (Chiuahua ) he was so fast she didn't see the little guy and fell over him and broke his neck.”

4.
a]
Kennel Club extensive research 1996 – 2006 not one single substantiated case of any problems.
b]
“We concluded that no physiological harm can be caused by electro pulse muscle stimulation collars” Interpreted from the German.
|
Klein, D., 2000. Elektrogeräte: Grundlagen, Wirkungen und mögliche Gefahren im Hinblick auf die Anwendung
in der Hundeausbildung. Der Gebrauchshund 1, 38–48.