I absolutely agree - if you know what you are doing, a pure wolf, or rather an F1, is very easy to train - they know what you want before you do - we trained our little F1 to sit, to lie down, to wait for food within a matter of minutes. But train him not to be scared of strangers - that would have taken a lifetime, if ever.

Anyway, I digress. Your second paragraph is very interesting - if you are correct, and you could well be, then great ... it's reward and punishment. If you don't come back to me when I call you, you will be punished with a short, sharp pain - if you want to use a strong word. I don't have a problem with that if that is what happened.

But I don't think so - the look on his face the first time he received a correction was like a Eureka moment - you could see the git thinking "o well if you put it like that, then I suppose I had better behave. At last and about time too you have got through to me!"

Very anthropomorphic, but you will have to believe my word on this one because there is no way I can prove it of course.

No-one is accepting my offer of a meet - it is meant sincerely. I live in the wilds of Northamptonshire, and am prepared to travel a reasonable distance.

I believe what you say Gnasher. And I quite admire the way you've put up with 'flack' on here in the past (some of it from me) and held your corner. So your beliefs are obviously 'honestly held'.

I still wouldn't be able to use anything on any pet of mine that inflicted shock or pain and I still object to the euphemisms like buzz, stim, etc. being used to describe shock or burn. But ... walk a mile in my shoes and all that.

Would have been so easy for you to just keep 'shtum' about using one. I think it adds to the debate to hear from people on BOTH sides of the fence. So often those that are in the minority view just say nothing. That doesn't make for interesting 'debate'.

Mattie - we are just going round and round in circles, but I just want to say one thing - I would NEVER EVER EVER advocate anyone use an e collar on their dog without trying "positive" methods first. I don't know of many dogs who do not respond well to treat training - most dogs live for their stomachs, but wolf crosses do not on the whole. And mine certainly do not - Tai does, but then he is a Utonagan and the wolf in him is from a long way back. Ben couldn't care less about food really, and although will readily accept titbits of liver and such like, is not prepared to be obedient for such trivia!!

You are right, I have chosen this type of dog, and therefore I must take responsibility for doing my very best for them. However, Ben as I have already explained is a rescue who has been abused a lot - with cruelty to start with, and then by too much kindness or people being scared of him - and I am not criticising them for being scared. He was terrifying when we first got him nearly 3 years ago! It has taken me all this time to be able to groom him without risk of being bitten, and it is still very difficult to brush his tail. As a double coated dog, he needs regular grooming, but I still have to put his muzzle on him if I want to give his tail a really good brush.

We probably never will agree on this, but I do thank you at least for your civility in conversing with me. It is a very very emotive subject, e collar usage, and I have chosen to stick my head above the parapet, so deserve all I get - no-one asked me to - but it is because, like you feeling very passionately AGAINST e collars, I feel very passionately about the RESPONSIBLE use of e collars as a LAST RESORT before condemning your dog to a lifetime on the lead, or rehoming him, or even having him put down.

Gnasher - our posts 'crossed' or we posted at the same time.

My beliefs ARE honestly held - I am absolutely 100% convinced that I have done the right thing - or rather we have. I place the credit for this entirely at the door of hubby, because I went ballistic when he said he was buying a Dogtra e collar. To give him his due, he was weeks in communication with Lou someone - Lou Castle I think it may be who does all the training advice for Dogtra in the States - and we met up with a trainer who is an expert in the use of e collars - but I was very, very sceptical. I still have never pressed the button myself - even ON myself, I had to let OH do it! However, I did carry it when I had to take the boys out on my own on their harness round the village just in case, having had a lesson from OH, but I was worried nonetheless.

I know the words buzz and stim are horrid - I don't know what else to say - perhaps I should say "correction".

I hate ignorance about anything I suppose - so many people bash Cesar Millan, but a lot of what he advocates is good. He is not all bad. E collars are not all about discomfort - Ben wears his quite happily every single day, sometimes we forget to take it off him and he goes to bed in it before we remember he is still wearing it. It has no significance for him whatsoever, so it cannot be a frightening thing to him otherwise, believe me, we would NEVER be able to get it on him. That dog is IMMENSELY strong - it takes THREE men to hold him down sufficient to get drops in his ears - and then he is muzzled to be on the safe side. If he was scared of the collar, then you would never be able to get it on him.

I really must get my daughter to video us with Ben wearing his e collar out on a walk, then everyone can see how happy he is.

Gnasher - I too admire your willingness and patience to go over and over the same questions and put up with the flack.

And also I admire your resolve to work with your dog and get to the point where he can enjoy off lead freedom and you can enjoy freedom from fear that he will take off and not come back/be injured/injure another dog.

Well done.

Thank you ... we really have reached the point where he can enjoy off lead freedom ... with all that entails.

We are now gradually taking him out into polite society again - we have started going back to pubs, so far with great success. Obviously, e collars are not part of this, if he misbehaves he is either put outside in the car, or we leave. We recently had a week's holiday in the Forest of Dean, and spent several happy hours drinking in the Speech House Hotel's very posh Orangery, surrounded by grand old ladies drinking Afternoon Tea - both Ben and Tai behaved exemplarily (spelling?).

The next big challenge is to overcome the Male Black Labrador Problem ... personally, I do not think we are going to get far on this one, but we can but try.

Fair play to you Gnasher Let's face it the majority of dog owners were gonna be against from the get go.Good to see a completely different viewpoint.You give your honest opinion when a lot of people in your situation would have remained silent.
Have to admit to being totally ignorant on the topic,have enjoyed reading the reasons for and against and learning more about it
Good luck with the Black Labs

My dog was attacked and bitten by a black lab - she doesn't have a problem with them - but I do. Can't stand the ones we meet. Not nice.

Thanks - poor things, they'll need it!

Seriously though, it's going to be a tough one. Ben is now around 7 ... luckily we have a black labrador in the village who is just about as arsey as Ben. I am intrigued to know how we are going to handle this one. My personal thoughts are that we walk Ben past BL - no Tai present - calmly, looking forward, taking absolutely no notice on the opposite side of the road. I will get OH to film us - then we can slow it down and watch at our leisure.

My first thoughts are that it is fear - almost all aggression comes out of fear in one form or another. It is very hard for dogs to read other dogs' faces that are of a single block of colour, black being the most difficult. So Ben is smelling testosterone - but he cannot focus on whether it is friend or foe, because he cannot "read" the dog's face. Added to that the floppy ears but the tendency of labs to carry their tails high, may give us the answer.