they are banned in Wales, with very good reason!!!! Evil ! Who would want to train a dog through ,pain, fear & punishment?

Not I!! But I believe it is possible to use an e-collar withOUT using pain, fear & punishment.

Ah! Nickyboy, think you know as well as I you could get a better response if you wanted to without the finger on bum, but you may be like me and not demand strict or immediate obedience and only train to a point of not quite there

How? the dog FEARS the pain so learns to avoid it.This is punishment.

If you offered the dog something nice everytime he did something wrong & he was Happy unscared & positively motivated, i very much suspect hes going to continue doing the wrong thing.

Sally your seem to be digging yourself ever deeper into a hole, why on earth would you use a tool designed to deliver pain if you then say it is possible to use it without causing pain. What do you do, leave the batteries out?

There can't be any reason for using an instrument of pain if you do not intended it to cause pain, think not only am I confused but reckon you are too.

Sorry I think that the problem that many people have with this, is the idea that you are not using fear or pain with an ecollar.
In order for the collar to stop a dog doing an undesired behaviour, it has to 'shock' it out of that behaviour. The only way to do that using a shock collar, is through discomfort. If it didn't hurt the dog, the dog would ignore it. If it was a 'non' feeling, if you like,then the dog would react to it in the same way as it does to a verbal command,the point is, the shock collar works because it hurts the dog and gets the dog's attention back. It wouldn't work and would be a pointless piece of equipment if it didn't hurt the dog. That's the point. There is no way the dog would respond if it didn't hurt it.

Spike sits no problem with just a command. Blaze (who is 2yo) still doesn't know what sit means. I say sit and give her a slight nudge on the bum. If she sits - great! - praise and/or reward. If she doesn't - no problem - I don't feel a need to 'force' her - I just leave it till next time.

Meaning that she has learnt that it is okay to do what SHE wants when you ask her to do something. Is this the same dog that you used an ecollar on?

If I ask my dog to do something, I expect it to do it as otherwise my dog is learning it is ok to ignore me when he feels like it. I can get my dog to do it with no nudging of bums...as I say I go back a step and throw in a visual command. If that fails I use a lure. I never need to go back that far though. A raised eyebrow with a visual command does the trick.

I have answered these questions in previous posts on this thread. Please read them before asking me to repeat myself over and over again.

Yes. I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

I think that sounds pretty reasonable.

I don't think discomfort is the same as pain. Pain HURTS. Discomfort is not comfortable.

yes with most females I can click my fingers like the fonz and they fall totally under my control

Yeah I am like that but my point is every now and then she might be staring a t something or listening to something I cant detect and she ignores my first one or two verbal commands so i just gently push down on her butt and she complies.

Thes best analogy i can think of is im walking thru bexleyheath shopping centre with the missus and accidentally find myself staring in the window of a shop, lets say Ann Summers as an example and my missus says ' I just want to pop in this shop' and it doesnt register because Ive just spotted that the french maid outfit is on sale, so my missus gives me a gentle tug on the arm and steers me into the shop she wants to go in. Now the tug dont really hurt and I acknowledge it cos somewhere in the back of my mind I heard her tell me the first time.
This is what I meant by one time in ten Lola will just not respond immediately.










( just as a disclaimer I have never bought anything from an ann summers shop ).