Oh yes I recall reading of that experiment, but can't find any info on it anymore.

If anything they do have their place in the Gun Dog world even though other methods even in that environment are used. Will it work err yes in skilled hands. Trouble is you need training in the use of something like that and this is why I support a ban on all shock collars to the public. If you read up on Gun Dog training the basic premis is not to use the collar to shock but to use it to teach the dog that when the owner calls the dog feels best when its at its owners feet, the way to look at this is this hide from your dog to make him feel lost and watch his behaviour he'll go into a bit of an alert and slight panic and look for you - that and only that is the level of discomfort that should be given! The collar is by no means should create a shock of more discomfort than a firm NO - clearly this can be argued against but I believe like all tools a master could show how this would be more effective and more humane than a load of screaming, treating up, pissed off human, or a lost tracking dog and so on.

Are you a gun dog master that has years of experience, if like me the answer is no then that should also be the answer to your request to buy one

This is what will happen if you do, you run the risk of; Setting it too high for your dog. You give a recall and shock when they dont return dog will learn your voice means pain. Your dog may be with others and see a dog it doesnt like for no reason zap shock now it wants to kill all dogs, you may shock him near kids, now wants to kill all kids. Shocking itself may make the dog develop mental problems. BUT the biggest by far with all shock collars is the dog can and if used long enough DIE! Nope they dont tell you that. But in psychology we like to shock a few animals in order to create stress and find out how it effects living things after all the WHO state stress is the no1 killer in world.

So we electrocuted a load of monkeys, not with high volts but enough to cause major discomfort and up as high as a cry (think dog yelp) their hormones raced after prolonged shocks they would wear out their neurotransmitters for stress related hormones and die or suffer mental problems. Then we shocked them on commands to let them know it was coming, they died and developed mental problems quicker. Then we trained monkeys to shock other monkeys on the hour. The monkeys getting the shock suffered as in the first two but also the monkeys doing the shocking who never recieved any shock died very quick from tumours in their gut developed from being stressed out. Then we trained the monky to shock himself and these ones died and developed mental problems very fast indeed! (these experiements are now thankfully banned and we is not I but we in the field of psychology)

Therefore anyone fancy shocking their pet? It could kill them and you. Dont get me wrong pain is a fantastic learning tool for a dog its god damn bloody brilliant! Example I have a wood stove, it gets hot, my dog touched it with his nose once, jumped back rubbing his nose and never touched it again - very fast learning took place. As with all species learning from pain is best left to the animal ie the animal gets something wrong the body says to the brain dont ever let that happen again, the brain goes OK OK OK Considering the speed at which pain can teach and embed a behaviour, forgetting humane reasons for a moment, it simply can not be used becasue it is too easy to embedd something that you did not wish that will have ever lasting effects. Not to mention the fact animals and humans get used to pain and fight back hence it ceases to become a learning tool.

Many of us keep terriers, their hunting skills were learnt through painful trial and error - rarely would a human understand the process and hence it should never be used as a learning tool other than a last resort by exceptional professionals where all else has failed and the animal will be PTS if the severe problem is not fixed.

Read this http://www.clickertrainusa.com/learningtheorymain.htm it will, without having to pick up psyche books, explain pain and reward as learning outcomes. You are not wrong for thinking pain can be used to teach recall - it can. But it is a million times easier to use positive reinforcement. It is far more humane, it is far more health for the dog and for you. I beleive I can teach any dog, that does not have mental or massive social problems, recall in less than 4 weeks.

Again as far as I am concerned, controversial no its not it is science and it does have its place in the science of animal behaviour (thats real scientists not micky mouse dog behaviourists that learn no more than what is on that link) but these things need to be banned becasue of all the reasons above in both this and other peoples posts. Stick with reward based it will improve your handling skills, your bond with your dog will grow, your dog will be less stressed and more happy which will mean more health. Plus if you get it wrong you wont kill any children or other animals and you wont have to PTS your dog or worst put it to rescue so someone else can have it and maybe it will kill them.

In short, your best bet is dump it and join a dog class recommended by the rspca and read that link and look at these examples of how to train the baiscs (you can do these without a clicker too, just use the words good boy in a high voice) Good luck and let us know how you get on

http://www.clickertrainusa.com/click...ing-videos.htm

PS I hope that provided an unbiased views of negative and positive operant conditioning


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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

and this is the world famous milgram experiment

Thanks rooroo ~ your post was interesting, especially on the effects of chronic stress.

Many people on this forum are very well informed on OC & CC principles; learning theory is a topic covered in a lot of detail on most reputable animal behaviour courses, so most do, in fact, know what they're talking about & are not "mickey mouse dog trainers". Perhaps if you read some of the posts & links on some of the other threads you'll realise that many members are very well versed in learning theory & are able to discuss the pros & cons of neg/pos pun & reinforcement, this being just one of many tools in the animal behaviourist's tool box.

It's quite frightening what was allowed in the name of "science" in the past & many animals have suffered greatly in humans' quest for knowledge. I'm a feline behaviourist & have had to read research & see pictures of cats with electrodes implanted in their heads, or bits of their brain removed so we can understand how the brain works ~ absolutely horrific; but I think that it's now up to all of us to use the knowledge gained in these ways to do out best to help the animals that suffered in the name of science.

Just watching another "It's me or the Dog" in the US, and VS has come up against a shock collar user, Jennifer, who found a trainer who told her to use a shock collar on her bulldog puppy

In the programme she tried it on herself, and it was only on a level 2 and she said "it feels like needles". It went up to a level 9 on that particular model (there are many makes, some go up to 100 or more, some are more subtle, etc). This is however a pet dog owner with pet dog, advised previously by someone who uses shock collars for training (professionally).

As VS said, if it feels that bad at just level 2, what would it have felt like at level 8 or 9, which is what the trainer was using on the bulldog puppy

Damn things. Sooner they are banned, the happier dogs (and owners) will be.

IMO this was one of VS most successful visits, as clicker training worked a treat on the dog, who improved vastly with other dogs.

Wys
x

I have heard of them being used for snake aversion training & things like that. But for normal training I wouldn't use one.

All shock collars are adjustable and if used correctly do not cause any pain. The best ones have vibrate and beeper functions as well. My dogs wear and benefit from shock collars every day that they are out, and are never shocked. There are other brands that are not a functional as mine however, and they are less useful.

Here is a great choice, it does everything and there is no need to use the shock function. [link removed]

Old thread first posted in 2011
Obviously reserected to cause debate on a highly emotive subject

Agreed. This person is doing nothing more than trolling at this point.

I provided information, you did nothing but call me a troll.

So again to answer the question. All shock collars are adjustable and if used correctly do not cause any pain. The best ones have vibrate and beeper functions as well. My dogs wear and benefit from shock collars every day that they are out, and are never shocked. There are other brands that are not a functional as mine however, and they are less useful.

This collar has a locator beeper, a tone (clicker) function and it also vibrates without shock. http://www.gundogsupply.com/sportdog-sd-1875.html So you can train your dog all day without any shocking.