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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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04-05-2009, 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg 
I think for me the main thing is that no-one on here seems to actually treat their dogs by following the pack leader theory (as in, the early John Fisher, Jan Fennell, et before your dog and do not allow it on the furniture or it will take over etc) nor in the earlier "dominance" model (ie some hard dog trainers who believed in alpha rolling etc for very small misdemeanours) nor is anyone seriously suggesting that Mech's recent research is actually wrong (except perhaps Gnasher's hubby?).
So, I must say I think many of the people who have voted for Yes simply don't really understand what has happened to the science behind the story and the myth of the alpha wolf.
The simple fact that cannot be argued with is that, with the knowledge we have to date, NO-ONE can actually BE an Alpha in the sense it once thought.
That's a fact!
So anything else is not scientific but is in fact using the A word purely in a way that is not correct. As Mech has said (and let's remember Mech has studied real wolves for most of his life...
)http://www.4pawsu.com/alphawolf.pdf
"The issue is not merely one of
semantics or political correctness. It
is one of biological correctness such
that the term we use for breeding
wolves accurately captures the biological
and social role of the animals
rather than perpetuate a faulty view".
I think this is really important. It's not fair to dogs, wolves or humans to perpetuate something that is biologically not correct!
"However, it has been said that it
generally takes about 20 years for
new science to fully seep down to
general acceptance, including even
new medical breakthroughs. Such
seems to be proving true with the
alpha-wolf concept".
Wys
x
'nother good posting though Wys !
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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04-05-2009, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Gnasher, I'm very confused here - was the above referring to this debate here?
Only if it was we aren't talking about whether you are cruel to your dog, we are discussing the whole alpha concept in general.
Secondly, what qualifications has Shaun Ellis got to talk about dogs and be an expert on them?! I'm quite annoyed he thinks he can do so! Good grief
But of course you're not being cruel to Thai.
I don't recall anyone saying that?
You are only giving him the guidance that most of us do, with perhaps a few tweaks or differences - in my eyes there is no alpha about it either, but on that we shall continue to disagree no doubt
even in the face of all that science which can't be argued with. Wys
x
Shaun Ellis, the Wolf Man, is hugely helpful to dog owners by being able to help them interpret their dog's body language, and why they do certain things, or react in a certain Way. This is because dogs are the direct descendents of wolves and still present with the same foibles, for want of a better word. OH and I attended a lecture given by him, and it was a real eye opener. He explained to us the different structures within the wolf pack, like the layers of an onion, and how we could use the rank of our dogs to understand them better. Hal was an alpha, my Tai is a middle ranking Beta, possibly a Nanny or an Enforcer. It was very, very interesting and cleared up a lot of confusion in my mind and answered a lot of questions.
Whether you "like" Shaun or not, he has lived with both wild and domesticated wolves, and is just about the most fascinating person to talk to about this fascinating subject.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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04-05-2009, 10:56 AM
Originally Posted by Promethean
And I say that you had nothing to do with it for the reasons including the necessity for a dog to possess theory of mind far more complex than a 3 year old child.
Menzies RG and Clarke CJ (1995). The etiology
of phobias: A nonassociative account. Clin Psychol
Rev, 15:23–48.
For those that don't want to look it up it basically says that animals are primed to be fearful of loud noises and you don't need to condition the animals to elicit a fear - in the parlance an unconditioned fear response.
My Hal was NOT frightened of anything. He was an alpha male. My fear made him think that there was something bad about thunder and fireworks after all.
It is actually a compliment to me - that he did recognise me as alpha female !
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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04-05-2009, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
No, Mini, I'm sorry, I'm riddled with flu at the moment and clearly not at my best !! Of course I don't think you think I am being cruel, and the debate certainly is not about that.
I asked Shaun in my posting to him on another website if he thought that I was being cruel by being alpha to my boy Tai. And his reply was that no I wasn't, in fact, I would be being cruel if I didn't take on the role of alpha.
Hope I've cleared that misunderstanding up !! I'm beginning to lose the plot here myself, sorry !!
apology accepted of course.I would be wary of following a certain persons philosophy.If what is being said in another thread is correct, he is not the kind of responsible dog owner who should be advising others on their dogs..
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=105764
For me the evidence (and there are many references posted in this thread) and my own observations after 60 years of being around dogs is overwhelmingly against the Alpha concept.
I would say the numbers in the poll are not a true reflection of those who believe in the Alpha concept. Many myself included posted in the 'other ' option .
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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04-05-2009, 12:54 PM
Before I judge a person, certainly in public, I will meet that person first, if at all possible. I have met Shaun, and formed my own opinion. He is man, with the all the weaknesses and foibles of that particular species !! Like ALL of us, he will make mistakes every day of his life, with both his wolves and his dogs. But I liked the cut of his gyb when I met him, the guy is sincere and incidentally, despite all the libellous remarks made about him in a different thread on this site, he is amazingly sexy. He has that je ne sais quoi which you have to see in the flesh to understand. It does not come across in pictures or on the telly.
Putting sex aside for one moment, as fascinating a subject as it is, the guy trips my trigger. What is more, he tripped Hal's too, and Hal did not take to strangers, particularly men. I liked the guy, he is an utterly sincere, very approachable fellow.
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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04-05-2009, 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
How come then Promethean, in your opinion, was it perfectly possible for me to attend bonfire parties and firework displays with Hal, and for him to NEVER be scared of ANY loud noises, until a traumatic event in my life made me jump like a fish at loud noises?
My Hal was NOT frightened of anything. He was an alpha male. My fear made him think that there was something bad about thunder and fireworks after all.
It is actually a compliment to me - that he did recognise me as alpha female !
OK - your small child goes to firework displays with you, no problem. Then one night Mum starts to scream and exhibit fear. Does that child not join in and exhibit fear? Because that instinct - to observe and act on other`s reactions - is pretty basic survival. Dogs exhibit learned and instinctive behaviour. He has learned there is something to fear, This does not translate to Gnasher is a a Super Leader Who Must Be Obeyed IMO, it merely means the dog is smart enough to get worried if someone shows him there is something to be afraid of. If the entire crowd had stampeded in panic, your dog would also have learned the same thing. Would this have made all the crowd Ellis-type people?
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Location: town. city
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 128
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04-05-2009, 01:07 PM
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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04-05-2009, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by ajshep1984
Gnasher - have I read this right? In the days of Hal there were three Alphas in your house? You, your OH and Hal himself who you describe as a "true Alpha"? How does that work then?
Trust us to go and pick the ruddy alpha, we couldn't have picked a nice easy mid ranking Beta like Tai, could we !
It was a very, very interesting 10 years, to live with not only an alpha male dog, but a wolf cross as well. It was not easy to separate what was pure alpha coming out, and what was wolf.
Sorry, I should have made that clear
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Location: UK
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,065
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04-05-2009, 02:02 PM
He also made a big point of teeling us that he was not a dog trainer - he had worked with wolves and felt that most dogs would not benifit from his theories.
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Location: Back in Canada, finally!!!!!
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 245
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04-05-2009, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
How come then Promethean, in your opinion, was it perfectly possible for me to attend bonfire parties and firework displays with Hal, and for him to NEVER be scared of ANY loud noises, until a traumatic event in my life made me jump like a fish at loud noises?
My Hal was NOT frightened of anything. He was an alpha male. My fear made him think that there was something bad about thunder and fireworks after all.
It is actually a compliment to me - that he did recognise me as alpha female !
And if we follow your thinking, by showing fear he should have killed you because by your standards alphas don't show fear and taken over. When you really dissect the claims you make they make no sense whatsoever.
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