If this was so, then service dogs to phobic people would end up sharing their phobias. We know that this isn't so. It's quite normal for animals to be scared of loud sounds and a very common.


I don't think so. This transference is not easy even with your own species much less across species.

This assumes THEORY OF MIND which dogs don't seem to posses - at least not to the level required for what you suggest. For humans it takes us 3-4 years.

O dear, this is becoming quite monotonous, but I'm sorry Promethean, yet again, I disagree with absolutely everything you say !! Please don't take it personally, but I just do !

I'm sure you're right when you say that it is quite common for animals to be scared of loud noises, but Hal was not scared of ANYTHING until I made him so ... thunder and fireworks. And just as quickly, I made him un-scared. Don't forget he was an alpha male ... very uncool for alphas to show anything other than extreme coolness and unconcern for much in life except sex !!

Again, re the transference, you are just going to have to take my word for it. I am telling the truth.

As for your last point, I will treat it with the contempt it deserves quite frankly !! I SO disagree with it to be off the scale !!

If I can't back up my ideas with empirical evidence and logic, they are not worth having.

If what you say is true, then it points to an animal with serious pathology. Fear is a natural and an essential aspect of survival, it is integral to all vertebrates - and maybe even invertebrates as well.

You maintain that because you are alpha (an outdated concept) you can transfer fear to the animal. What you suggest borders on magical thinking.

This characterization of "alpha males" is straight out of folklore/cartoons.

I believe you think you are telling the truth. But your explanations tend to be emotionally based - personal and subjective.

Your reaction is irrational given that there scientific evidence to support my assertions about a dog's theory of mind

I would doubt if that was flooding, Gnasher - or even it it was, it would be a very mild form of it which, because of human reasoning, did no harm.

I wouldn't describe it as flooding, this is a good example of flooding from Pam Reid's Excelerated Learning:

"Try forcing a dog that is fearful of people on roller blades to sit next to a sidewalk as person after person goes by on rollerblades. The dog will become extremely jumpy and will continually try to escape. When the escape is thwarted, this too is extremely frightening and so the fear escalates to new heights. The only way that flooding will work in such a situation is to wait until the dog has become exhausted and is physically unable to respond fearfully any longer. At this point is it actually experiencing the feared stimulus without reacting and extinction is able to occur. Usually this is not an ethical option"

On people: "Sometimes the treatment works ...but more often than not the person experiences such fright and discomfort during the experience that the fear becomes even stronger"

True flooding means the person or dog experiences what amounts to terror!

Wys
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I wouldn't describe facing up to our fears as flooding exactly. For instance, if I was to face up to my fears, I'd probably do it very slowly at a distance I could cope with - that would not be flooding, it would be desensitisation

I'm way too much of a wuss to opt for making myself terrified!

Wys
x

but it could be argued that you did all this at a level you knew you could cope with, which isn't the same as flooding IMO.

Again, I'd say that is more like desensitisation

How would you have felt if instead of the schoolmaster, you'd been forced to ride a very sparky exciteable young horse who wanted to gallop everywhere and there were busy roads around? I'm sure you'd have been very scared, and IMO rightly so!! That would be more like flooding.

Wys
x

"Fear is a natural and an essential aspect of survival, it is integral to all vertebrates" (Promethean). Absolutely true. Many phobias are described as 'irrational fear', I think that it is not so irrational but it may have resulted from a fear mechanism getting out of hand.

I suffer from a fear of heights, I think it has a very valid basis. I have to slowly desensitize my self if ever I have to work at a height I do not like. Usually this works for me. I dont much care for the concept of flooding; I certainly don't think it would work for my wolfdog who has more 'instinctive' behaviour; I suspect it would be very damaging.

I watch my wolfdog; she has a very cautious behaviour and will approach strange objects with care, if I make a noise moving my chair she will retreat first and then consider what made the noise and why before deciding the threat level. This could be considered a neurotic reaction or a survival mechanism at work: I prefer the second interpretation.

Yes I didn't say you didn't ...
I'm so so sorry to read this, that must have been awful

What I meant was that with the same scenario, that would happen very probably to the posters who have posted to say they disagree with the alpha view....Ie you don't have to be alpha for that to happen. You can be the dog's owner or guardian or "parent" but you don't have to act as an alpha for the dog to be afraid under such circumstances...

Wys
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We are all wasting our time trying to convince Gnasher away from her 'Alpha' views Some people prefer to believe their dogs are really wolves because they buy into the whole wolf philosophy and the mysticism surrounding it .

I understand Gnasher is a great fan of Shaun Ellis somtimes known as The Wolfman , (please correct me if I am wrong Gnasher)
I saw these wise words on the internet from the pen of Mr Ellis, he is I believe talking about dogs here and not wolves.....

mmm .

I guess if you make your living from an involvement with Wolves you may start to view other things in those terms.

Please note , a Moderator had deleted some of the off topic posts and split the tread , the posts about Amy's bus fear are now here..

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=105847

Thank you.