I like him, but looks like i might be in the minority here.
I think things easily get exaggerated when people hold their views so passionately.

I don't think what he does with his foot could be described as kicking and my feelings are that he is very genuine with what he is trying to do.

Having said that, I do feel that some of his methods could encourage people to be far to dominating, resulting in a dog that is actually frightened of you.

I also don't like the pinning down because many less able, less confident, or less experienced owners could get hurt trying this and although I've read of many trainers using the method I'm left unconvinced of it's usefulness.

In most cases kind reward based training works wonders.
My dog and previous dog do not get a bowl of food plonked on the floor, they work for there food and seem to love working for there food but I suspect that some people would think this is cruel.

People have different ideas of what they think is right, but it doesn't mean they are not genuine

Hi Shane - that's a good post, and I pretty well agree with what you've said. I like a lot of what CM does, and I hate a lot too. My boys have to work for their food in that if they are being unruly and are not sitting calmly whilst the bowls are prepared, then no bowls are put down until they are calm - this is what CM would describe as calm, assertive energy on us humans' parts. This is us setting the rules, boundaries and limitations.

I like the way CM says its OK for your dogs to jump on the furniture, if it's OK with the humans. Both my dogs now have their own sofa, which they share, but any trouble, any recalcitrance when being asked to get down, the privilege is withdrawn. My dogs are allowed anywhere in the house, but under our rules.

I like his advocation for exercise before training - a well-exercised dog will be a calm dog, more receptive to listening to commands and therefore responding well, earning themselves a reward so the session goes positively.

with my particular types of dog - northern breeds, the whole assertive thing, the tssting, the claiming of space, the finger warning, the control of dominance between the 2 boys, all is very apt and very appropriate. Ben especially is a dominant git, constantly trying it on with both us and his mate Tai given half the chance. The former nip any such behaviour in the bud before it gets a chance to progress, and the latter will pin Ben down by jumping on him and emitting terrifying snarls whilst not laying a tooth on him. Ben now submits to this without a murmur, but when we first took him on he would react and the 2 would have serious fights resulting in injury. All is now peace and calm in our household, with us as top dogs, followed by Tai followed by Ben.

What else do I like about CM? I like his pack theory, I believe in pack theory certainly with dogs of my type.

What I do not like about CM is his use of that horrible Illusion collar, and the way he holds the dogs' head up high with it tightened. My boys definitely do not and would not respond to this - they respond best with a relaxed lead. The more you pull on their necks, the more they will pull, and weighing in at 45 kilos a piece, they are the winners in any tug of war, not a place you want to be when you are on the end of 90 kilos of malamute cross!!

i don't like the way he tends to treat all problems the same - as being dominance.

I don't like the way he kicked those dogs that turned on him - through his own fault and mishandling. Whereas I often use a knee knudge, I would never ever ever kick with my foot or knee hard with my knee. Certainly with Ben, you could end up being bitten, or snarled at.

I personally believe he has got lost, he has lost his way with all the celebrity nonsense going to his head.

I like Cesar.
He's average. He's not spectacular but he's not bad either. I'm not big on everything he does but I think somethings he does still have a place.

I think he needs a refresher though. In his newer episodes he seems off, uninterested, tired, doing stuff he didn't do in older episodes. He seems like he was legitimately caught off guard by Holly, and before he would have seen the bite coming.

Hi Shane,

I do understand what you are saying and your post is well balanced However, I think it's easy to be taken in by editing methods and so on. For example, the kicking you mentioned .. so many believe it's not actually kicking but what you are seeing is the product of very clever previous conditioning (ie the dog has been kicked beforehand, harder, or it's perhaps been linked with something else aversive such as a shock collar) and so when CM moves his foot the dogs are actually pretty anxious and see it as an attack, hence their often apparently aggressive reactions.

This hypes it all up for TV and makes the viewers believe he is dealing bravely with a very aggressive dog

And so on.

Wys
x

I think people need to remember that consistency, adequate exercise and a calm demeanor (which he advocates but doesn`t practice btw) were not invented by this man - they have been advised by everyone who has ever trained an animal.
In between the `right` things he says you have to also accept that he spouts the most dreadful rubbish on pack theory which even the bloke who first drew up the theory says is wrong. Because his basic premise is wrong, the reasoning behind his method is wrong.
A bit like learning to knit with one needle - it simply doesn`t work.

I've just posted a long reply to you Wys, and then promptly lost it!! Start again ...

I use the knee nudging technique with Ben, who as you know is DA. When dogs are approaching us off lead or on lead, my 2 are on lead. If Ben "starts", then I will nudge him in the ribs with my knee gently but firmly and say "ah ah", which gets his attention and I then say "no". This makes him relax and feel that I am in control of the situation and he can relax. He very rarely now will continue to be aggressive after this, but Tai at this point can start barking, so I then whip in front of him and square up to him and tell him "no". Again, this usually diffuses both dogs and we can then approach the other dogs if the owner is OK with this. We have had 2 or 3 similar meets recently like the above described, and Ben has been a star. On the first occasion he started to do his dominance routine where he tries to climb on the back of the other dog, but he met his match with this elderly black lab bitch and she turned on him, and immediately he backed off. We ended up being able to let Tai off the lead, and my daughter's 2 chihuahuas, and the BL and the other dog all had lots of fun interaction with our 4, with Ben behaving himself. We didn't let him off the lead, but he was on a loose lead and was beautifully behaved after the initial show of aggression. He came away the second my husband nudged him.

So, I would say with my 2, the knee nudge works. Obviously you can only do this with large dogs, but certainly with my 2 northern breed types, it works.

I like EdDTS's post - I agree, I think CM has lost his way with all the media coverage both anti and pro - I like your mention of "well-balanced" Wys as well - see, CM is not all bad!!

Well, just because it's nothing new does not mean it is wrong! I don't think CM has ever claimed to be the inventor of calm, assertive energy and plenty of regular exercise!

Some of the things he says and does are most certainly right - no need for the quotes!! As a pack theorist myself, I don't believe his basic premise IS wrong, I believe it is right - certainly for my choice of breeds - I simply consider that he has now lost his way, and needs to go back to the drawing board, back to his basic premise if you like. After all if you believe in pack theory, then you believe that as the human owner you are alpha, your dog should look up to you, should respect you and should rely on you for protection, and also be free from the responsibility of having to defend the human pack the whole time because of a weak, ineffectual owner - or Alpha. A good alpha should not use force, should not kick. A CM nudge of the knee is equivalent to the adult wolves in the pack nipping the cubs before going out hunting to make sure they go down into the safety of the den and stay there.

But I doubt you will agree with this because you don't believe in pack theory.

Well said Gnasher. Different approaches suit different individuals, human and canine. I do agree that there is good and bad with Milan, and that he does appear to have somewhere lost his way and is now trying to live up to his image and create dramatic TV, rather than do the best for the dog.

As for set ups, all televised trainers do unshown preparatory work for the same reason, to make their results look more spectacular and to keep the programme interesting. No edited 30 or 60 minute show on re training a dog is ever going to show everything that happened, nor reveal everything in real time! In the same way that many "real life" wildlife documentary programmes are actually "representative" set ups, make to look real.

David Mech did not denounced pack theory and alpha status. He moderated and quantified both and said that the "alpha" term had been overused and misapplied, while also saying that there are times and situations where it can rightly and correctly be applied. He also stated that a hierarchy naturally arises with the parents leading the youngsters - he didn't say it doesn't exist.

IMO the situation with pet dogs actually is much closer to the artificial packs that were studied that the more naturally occurring familial packs as our pets dogs are often artificially put together from unrelated individuals, some of whom may join as adults, and very few are born into the group. Our pet dogs are mostly confined into enclosed spaces (kennels, runs, parks, houses etc) so if they do not like the set up they are not free to move off/out and set up their own pack as maturing or conflicted wolves can do.

IMO there is very little that is genuinely entirely new in dog training over the last few decades, with much going back much further than that. However often people will try to present something as new, looking for a USP (Unique Selling Point) for commercial and reputation reasons. E.g. look at the different "branding" of basic DS/CC, presented as something new and unique.

Clicker training is often presented ( although not by Karen Prior) as being something more that the use of a secondary reinforcer- basic Pavlovian classical conditioning in it's early conditioning stages.

"Calming Signals" IMO would be much better termed as "Negotiation" or straightforward "Communication" signals as several are only calming if the other side does not challenge or ignore the message, but there is little kudos or commerciality in saying that.

People forget with Barbara Woodhouse that, aside from dogs, she trained horses and she based that up quietly blowing up their noses and gently accustoming them to handling, unlike the tethering, hobbling and "breaking" and brutal training that was used in places at that time. People are also very keen to remember the check chain usage but to ignore that she also told people to "Love your dog" i.e. pet and praise it enthusiastically when it did well- she was looking at the bond as well as the training.

Her detractors also disregard that she virtually pioneered bringing dog training into main stream TV, setting the background for others, of whatever persuasion, who followed.

Things move on, develop and evolve and politics and views change over time but as there is little that is totally new and unique, there is also little that is all bad or all good, imo.

However there can be a lot of re inventing the wheel and throwing babies out with bathwater!

Excellent post Tass. I was a fan of BW's horse handling techniques, she wasn't all bad, but unfortunately does seem to be remembered for the choke chain usage - a device which absolutely hate and loathe, and which in any case does not work with "pulling" breeds like huskies and mals.

Those techniques of CM's that work for my boys, I shall continue using. Incidentally, they work with my daughter's chihuahuas, and with her cats, although she only has 1 cat now! The claiming of the space I am sure is not unique to CM, but he was the first I ever saw to use it and it revolutionised the then difficult time we had with Hal.

Sadly I cant even say I like his 'common sense' bits - not the way he uses them
Exercise, disciplin,affection

FIRST for anyone dealing with issues should be vet checks - he dosent

Exercise - yes - appropriate mental and physical exercise
I have never heard him talk about keeping a dog mentally stimulated - it is all about physical exercise
Including a giant breed puppy who he dragged out in the heat of the day for a run so it would obay him to run up the stairs that a dogs of that age and breed should not have been attempting
Trotting on a treadmil in place of walks - so you have a super fit bored dog - sure excess exercise can make a big change in some dogs in the short term, and many dogs need more exercise - but it does not address many problems and once the dogs fitness levels increase then the problems may come back

Disciplin
hmm well yes 'training' the problem is in CM world the dogs somehow know what they are supposed to do and are being bad if they make the wrong choice
So all you have to do is set things up so the dog does the wrong thing and punish them
He ignores all the good things the dogs do and goads them into missbehaving so he can punish them

Affection. Well yes, of course you shouldnt be rewarding your dog with affection when they are acting in ways you dont like
but
CM first punishes with his hands and body, the dogs learn to see his hands as bad things
Hence when he 'rewarded' Holly with a pat she didnt see his hands as a good thing - they were a threat and she responded in kind
I have watched him patting and snuggling with dogs lots of times now - the dogs are not enjoying the affection

His time is past, there are plenty others who could do a much better job
just as although in her time Barbra Woodhouse did *some* good work we really wouldnt like to see her jerk and pull choke chain methods on the tv any more