E collars are used on kitty's mostly to keep them in gardens and off tables.

One of my cats recalls on the whistle I use for the dogs. She also comes on (local walks) with us.

Adam

doesnt mean its right imo
so did my cat,also gave paw too

One of the reasons I became an anti e-collar "doggist" was the thought of electricity close to the head. My late Snorri-dog was epileptic, and a shock, however mild, near his head, could have killed him. I have also seen what happened when my late Kali bumbled into an electric fence. Not pretty.

Snorri

As for you research of e-collars - to source people with practical experience is only one aspect of research IMO, the reason being is that people who have a preconceived notion of seeing e-collars being acceptable, you have no challenge of seeing the negative aspects of them as the trainers already using them have accepted that they are not cruel.

To make one more point on getting advice on e-collar trainers (as you said they like to be called) they could have fundamental flaws in their own use of e-collars and you have taken those with you. Just as in nursing that is one reason they have turned nursing into a university degree as new nurses were being shown by old nursing practices how to do things and the same errors were coming to the fore front and by putting them into university and now relying on best practice techniques, old nursing traditions are getting thrown out the window and a vital question that can now be asked is 'why is it done that way' and the answer not being 'because that is how it has always being done' is not sufficient and being proved by studies over a large range of conditions to be true or false and new techniques implemented when necessary(sorry OT but hopefully you see the link I was trying to make)

Two vital points you missed in your research are

1) studies - as they give you an indication of the positives and negatives towards them, in which way they shouldn't be used even if used (such as fear aggression as it can heighten the fear or redirect fear into another form and make it worse, which I would like to add you have indicated you would use one and maybe if you had done more than resource people who use them and advocate them, you may have given in more thought before claiming they are good to use on fear aggressive dogs

2)welfare - why is it e-collars are getting banned or restricted? Because the damage they can do is far less reversible and can create new behavioural issues that are worse than the ones you are trying to stop in the first place and dogs being pts because of those.

Putting all three together would give anyone a better understanding and knowledge than just using on, I really would have thought university would have shown you how to get a holistic view on a subject that you wished to look at using

You claim all research is aimed the high level of 'sensation' I say you didn't look hard enough at studies and assume they are as the dog has a negative response to them and you are unable to admit e-collars are not going to suit all dogs in curbing bad behaviour. My assumption comes on the basis of a previous post where you believe the e-collars are on high when there is no wording to the fact only the dogs are not responding to the e-collar as you believe they should.

As or children, if you asked a lot of parents about how they discipline their children and the advice given you would find some direct links between showing a child right from wrong and showing a dog right from wrong. The threat of physical harming of children is now the same as using e-collars (a physical harm) on dogs and now can both see you end up in front of a court to answer to the law.

Re Malamute, I would have felt far more comfortable if you had said every other avenue had been tried and failed and this was a last resort rather than 'within three hours it was fixed' to me that is the owners looking for a quick fix, not understanding their breed of choice and the traits they possess. I would be looking at the owners and asking how did the dog get the chance to kill three sheep (I am guessing 3 different incidences, please correct me if I am wrong) before they took action as once would have been enough for me to ensure the safety of the sheep and my dogs future, than allowing it to happen again (also realising accidents happen, but 3 times seems odd)

Then why not use hand pressure?? ( think she said it was hand pressure on an elephant )If there is no more discomfort than hand pressure, why do you feel for the e-collar? If as you claim it is no more uncomfortable I would again ask
- Why e-collars????

- I think if people are going to use them they should be able to admit to the truth of them, they are collars that emit an electrical pulse and causes pain to some level on the dog. The only people they are fooling are themselves,. I even read where a person who uses them advises others to use a word other than 'shock' collars so you can manipulate peoples perception of them

- E-collars have no standard pain level given to the differing levels of shocks, each brand differs, do you think that should be addressed if nothing else?

-If you find the need to use e-collars but only the lowest level would you be content with a restriction of three levels, first being vibration, second a beep and third, a mild tingle (of an electric current equaling a shock)?
(just to let you know I don't like any option other than banning them but wondering from the other side of people who find them acceptable to use if a lowering of pain for the dog would be of no consequence)

- In what situations do you see them as fit for use? and what situations unsuitable?

So you don't discuss instinct (behaviour being only one aspect of instinct), the history of the dog breed, suggest in future a different breed for them as they are not equip to deal with such a dog, with out the aid of a e-collar?



No problems, am happy to repeat my questions, never look up pancreatitis on here as I am a serial offender and repeated myself often


Now to answer some of your questions
Here is the difference
I think you are getting confused about

Negative punishment (which I think you consider NR) can be, your dog jumps up on to you, you turn away and ignore the dog. The punishment being you don't give your dog the attention it is seeking by its behaviour, in no way is it hurting the dog physically but the dog will soon learn not to jump up on you to get attention

E-collars are negative reinforcement, you hold down the shock button whilst the dog is running towards the sheep, when it turns away from the sheep the pain ceases, it doesn't fix the reason they behave as they do, but suppress it as they know if they do it they will get a painful stimuli and some studies show you need increasing stimuli (higher shock levels) to continue the suppression

E-collars use electric shock on a setting beyond a beep or a vibration, without it it wold be called a vibration collar, so the question is kind of pointless.
Call it an e-collar, shock collar, humane collar, high prey drive management collar, collar saver of dog's lives what ever it is not the name that worries me it is the action.
That is why it concerns me when people use them and try to manipulate the meaning of them and try to call it another name than a collar that gives out an electrical impulse causing an electrical shock and when you read that some users of e-collars try to tell others not to call it what is it so people may perceive it differently, that is assuming we are all unable to figure it out the real meaning, even the silliest of sillies would realise if they tried it on themselves it hurts.

Sorry about the length of the post

E-collars are positive punishment whichever way you look at it. They inflict different degrees of pain whenever the dog performs an unwanted behaviour. You can dress it up as negative reinforcement by saying that the pain is removed by the dog performing a wanted behaviour, i.e. looking away from the sheep makes the pain stop. But the fact remains that the dog has had to perform the unwanted behaviour first, therefore getting a shock ~ that is the positive punishment part. As for only removing the pain/sensation or whatever you want to call it, when the dog performs the wanted behaviour ~ this is not instant, it can take several seconds before the dog looks away, & maybe during those seconds, it has performed several different behaviours, so it has very little chance of learning exactly what it is supposed to do.

But the result is that the dog is not being shown what the owner/trainer WANTS it to do ~ it is only punished for doing something unwanted. It may learn, over time, that looking away from sheep, or glancing at the sky, or flicking an ear, or shuffling a foot, does not result in an electric shock ~ but that is hardly a quick & accurate fix for sheep chasing! All that has happened is that the dog has suppressed very ingrained behaviours out of fear that something horrible might happen if it doesn't.

And anyway, it does not show the dog ACCURATELY what is the wanted behaviour. i.e. calm, relaxed behaviour around livestock coupled with a good recall. I have a horrible feeling that if a dog encounters physical pain anywhere near livestock on one occasion when severe pain is inflicted, or lots of occasions when less pain is inflicted, then this does not teach a dog calm, relaxed behaviour around livestock. I think it is more likely that the dog will be in a highly aroused state around livestock, worried & anticipating yet more pain & perhaps more unpredictable. And once in that state, if the dog does take off after sheep then you wouldn't have a great chance of stopping it!

Adam ~ would you ever consider using an ecollar to teach a dog not to chase a resident cat? As a feline behaviourist I would be absolutely horrified if you said yes! I would never, ever consider leaving a dog trained by the use of an ecollar alone with a cat ~ the results could be horrendous.

And as for using ecollars on cat ~ this would be completely pointless. Cats don't learn from non-rewarding events ~ all that happens is that they would use everything in their behavioural repertoire to escape/avoid the shock, usually by leaving home! I wonder how many dogs would choose to leave home in similar circumstances if they had the chance?

Another point is that, despite there being lots of talk about the ethics of using ecollars (or any other form of punishment), the animal's welfare, the fact that animals are sentient beings, capable of emotion & learning, how do people who then use punishment, but claim to be animal-lovers, reconcile this in their own minds?

The only reason seems to be that the alternatives for the dog, would be even worse, i.e. rehoming, euthanasia or "imprisonment".

But how do we know that these alternatives would be worse? Only because we humans think so! We may have seen the frustration that leads to other behavioural problems because the all dog's efforts to perform it's normal behaviours are thwarted. But there are alternative things for a dog with high prey drive to do, that could satisfy those instincts, without leading to the mutilation of sheep. And maybe rehoming would be better in some cases (possibly even euthanasia if the dog is doomed to a life of fear).

And there has also been a lot of talk about stopping behaviours, or getting the right behaviours ~ but what about how the animal is feeling? What about it's emotional state during these punishment sessions? Is that ethical or kind? Does that improve the dog's life experiences? Does that improve a dog's view of humans?

Thanks for the reply Adam, at least you are polite unlike some ecollar people. However, I would disagree strongly the level of aversive is similar to hand pressure as it's a completely different feel.

Touch me with a hand and I would not be concerned.

Dogtra are expensive and do go from very low to very high levels. Surely though, you must agree that ecollars can and do hurt?

You said before that they don't. I really don't see how you can claim this, especiallyif you own a Dogtra.

Wys
x

Yes. I guy I knew who did use them very sparingly (he was interested in learning about other methods as he had a very shy rescue doberman at the time) and he told me straight that they can be torture.

That's from someone who supports their use.

Wys
x

If you literally look at the hand pressure (open flat hand, loads of positive reinforcement, and elephants free to come or go as they choose, special food rewards of grass, salt and molasses made lovingly by the mahouts) tis way different from the shock collar where dogs are on a lead, cannot get away, body language ignored or not seen and forced to a situation with no positive reinforcement, only the "relief" of the taking away of the aversive.

And then you see some dogs racing to beat the stim, yet this is often seen as an eager dog by those who have no idea what has gone on!! That makes me so mad, I cannot tell you. All the time they are under pressure: it betrays what dog and mankind is all about.

Some people even recommend using the stim even when the dog has learnt, for many many days/weeks - see, it gets worse. They claim it makes the dog reliable. Very sad.

Firstly I don't trust the ecollar users I've spoken too, bar one (and they have been many via thenet and in person). They always say one thing and ultimately do another at times, which can cause the dog great pain.

They end up using it for basic training methods. I have seen videos of this (Petsafe to US trainers) and it makes me almost physically ill to see the dog's wagging their tail tips and desperate to please, yet not getting anything but relief of aversive. It disgusts and saddens me, from an emotional viewpoint.

From a scientific one, it's just too risky and I'd never want to use one. This is quite good at explaining why:

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/negativ...-shock-collar/

well worth a read and my reasons for not using one which are apart from the emotional side.

"This is an emotive issue and there are strong opinions on both sides, so I’m going to dodge it. I’m going to present the facts, and let you decide."

Wys
x

And there's another one

Supporters will always use this to say that their method is best, and if you don't consider it, the dog may die. It is their excuse of using it for everything from Recall to teaching agility and dog dancing...

Wys
x