Hi, welcome
I think almost all of us are in agreement dogs need "leaders" or "parents" and guidance, and to be taught manners, that sort of thing - it's better for the dog as they then feel more safe and relaxed in human society.

But pack leader as in alpha - it isn't the same as the above.

I'd say this is very incorrect Hannaho, sorry. As far as I am aware there is no evidence anywhere for this.

Wys
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For anyone wishing to read more about the research here's some links showing that the idea of alpha/pack leader is incorrect:

This link is excellent as it draws everything together with some more good links to articles:

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm


Dogs are not tame wolves. The domestic dog is a separate species that evolved from wolves approximately 14,000 years ago and exhibit behaviors that wolves do not. They also do not display behaviors that wolves do, such as regurgitating food for their young.

Whatever happened to the term Alpha Wolf?

http://www.4pawsu.com/alphawolf.pdf

Amercan Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour:
(good bit on page 2 about how leadership differs from dominance)

http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancestatement.pdf

Wys
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Nice brought us back onto the original subject of Pidge's thread, Tassle !

I am a nature not nurture girl. I believe wholeheartedly that ALL pack animals ... us included ... are the way we are because of our genetic makeup. Ipso facto, alphas are born, not made. I do not hold at all with the idea that somehow a wolf born with a fairly lowly rank, say Beta Nanny, can somehow become an apha. This is absolute nonsense IMO. Why? Because it's not logical ! Wolves would not be able to survive if this were the case, because there would be anarchy and mayhem with all these alphas fighting amongst themselves as to who was the most alpha-ist ! Shaun Ellis is right ... alphas are very rare in both dogs and wolves.

I shall continue to do what I know works with Tai, and that is to act as a good Pack Leader.

And a great opinion it is too !! Nice to have you on board, it's getting very lonely for me here !!

Just very quickly as I should not be on here but I saw a programme on Nat Geo. where a very low ranking wolf (as they called it) did actually make the way to mating and having her own pups... in effect, she became an "alpha".

In the Yellowstone group apparently Mech says there are several breeding pairs as the group is unusually large.

I believe the genes are the gun and bullets, and its the environment which pulls the trigger. It's a huge argument but I believe generally scientists now believe it's literally both nature and nurture.

I of course don't agree with Shaun that some pups are beta, alpha or anything else - alpha schmalpha, Shaun

Wys
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Glad you're not dying of boredom aj !!

Indeed, the fraction of a % difference in the DNA between dog and wolf is behavioural, quite true. I have never said that dogs behave exactly the same as wolves, there are differences, of course there are. The most glaring and outstanding one being that wild wolves are petrified of man for a very good reason. All domesticated wolves, even those that have been raised as a normal dog in a domestic situation, will retain that aloofness or even slight fear. I know this for a fact because I am in regular communication with a lovely man in the States who has a bitch 100% wolf whom he has intensely socialised and to all intents and purposes is a dog. Apart from her looks, it is obvious though to anyone who knows dogs that she is very different ... holds something back. she is friendly, amenable, but just has that something that tells you she is not like an ordinary dog.

To me, this is the attraction of a wolf cross. They too have retained this aloofness, which I love.

Sorry Mini, like many others on here ... including yourself may I add - I tend to shoot from the hip, to speak my mind. My posts are rambling and far too long at the best of times, if I start to add bits to soothe and assuage sensibilities, they would become even more boring than they most likely are !!

You are right, I haven't followed up yet on any of the fascinating links to various pieces of research, which is why I haven't commented on them. This is 1) because OH (alpha male ! ) goes absolutely bonkers every time he finds me on here, so I don't have much time and 2) I have been suffering from flu for nearly 2 weeks now and am feeling absolutely lousy and certainly my brain is not up to anything too technical at the moment. When I am better I fully intend to do some reading.

You'll just have to believe me when I draw on my extensive experience of wolves and high % crosses. I don't care whether you or anyone else thinks otherwise, so please don't drag this very nice thread where we are all getting on so well down into the mire by making inaccurate insinuations. You are entitled to think what you think, but only I am in a position to be entitled to KNOW

I don't mean to post remarks that seem to be condescending (sp?), but that is just my way I'm afraid, warts and all I am a flawed human being the same as all of us.

And I apologise to Promethean if I have been rude. I didn't mean to be, but as we are both barking from such completely different hymn sheets, I felt it was pointless carrying on addressing each other. Of course I didn't mean to imply that no-one else would not be interested and agree or disagree with either of us. I for one really enjoy reading his posts, and when I am feeling better I shall be reading up on all the links etc.

For every bit of research, there will be an opposing bit of research. We should all remember that, all of us, on both sides of the argument about whether we should or should not be Pack Leader.

Promethean, thank you for your civil post, and I apologise unreservedly if I have been rude to you ! Mini has reminded me of my manners, and I apologise but I get very carried away sometimes when I am talking about a subject that I have a lot of PRACTICAL knowledge and experience.

I have not followed up any of the links on this fascinating thread, because I am just not up to it at the moment. I can't shake off this wretched flu, and am going to the doctor's tomorrow. When I am better, I shall have a lot of reading to do !

There's evidence Wys !! I know you don't like him, but talk to Shaun Ellis ... he lives with his own domesticated pack at Combe Martin, but also with wild wolves in America with the Nez Perce indians.

I wonder if that was the same programme I saw? Where there was a lone male sniffing around a pack. During a hunt and subsequent kill, a naughty female slipped off and had sex with this lone male. Unfortunately for them, during the tie the rest of the pack smelled a rat and came to see what was going on ! They were caught de flagrante, frantically trying to break their tie which of course they couldn't do. The poor male was absolutely petrified and was attacked by the alpha male and his betas, but for some reason wasn't killed. Normally, both the lone male and the female would have been killed, or at least very seriously wounded and left for dead.

I did wonder whether it was a set up, because it is extraordinary that both parties got off so comparatively lightly.