What norm? the BVA results list the the 'norm' or average for that breed. There is no universal 'norm' for all breeds for hip scores.

Simple statistics; there is no significant difference between those scores.

@Borderdawn

More Pedigrees purposely bred for money....sad! :/

Firstly, your assumption they where bred for money is wrong, if you read the thread you'll know I don't stand to make any money from them, I'll just about cover my costs, maybe. Secondly, breeding Pedigrees as a business is ok but cross breeds isn't, why is that?

The average for all the breeds. Not that I have added them up and 'do the math' but looking at the results I would say most breeds are between, what, 10 to 13? There or there abouts. 18 is well outside that range and stands out and is among the highest figures there, imo at least.

Well having ruled out that you wanted to sell the pups----and that you are not a troll. That just leaves ignorance as a defence. Which labels you adequately IMO.

rune

ignorant of what?

I wasn't going to get involved in this, but what i can't get my head around is you genuinely believe what you are saying, both springers and collies regularly end up in rescue as do crosses of them, because people just can't cope with them, and the amount of WORKING springers we are now seeing with HD and genetic problems is unreal.

I just want to know are you going to take these babies back when it all goes pear shaped?? or just like everybody else that breeds because they had a couple of good dogs that have no aparent health problems going back a couple of generations are you just going to let the rescues pick up the pieces

Not getting involved, sorry.

I believe you could still be a troll----albeit an ignorant one.

Unfortunately for dogs you are not a one off, just a typical silly owner.

rune

Pretending to know what you are talking about with regard to hip and eye testing for a start.

Well I held my hands up to not knowing about Springers carrying PRA, and I should have known it, you're right, but I think I was reasonably correct about the rest of this. Was it you Labradork who kept telling me that you cannot over exercise or over feed puppies into developing HD, was it??? I'll check... because that's clearly not what the research says. Pretty sure what I've said is that HD can be controlled and even completely avoided, despite a genetic predisposition, with careful managment, is that not correct?

I also said puppies (at 16 weeks) should be tested, that was met with scorn. Have any of you read the research I posted?

I also said the only way you can tell whether a dog is suffering with HD (as in is causing pain) is to check mobility, an x ray will not help with this, in fact a dog with poor hip ratings can be in much less pain than a dog with a good hip rating. That again was met with scorn.

I have been called irresponsible for breeding a crossbreed, but no one has offered an explanation as to why breeding pedigrees is morally right and breeding cross breeds is morraly wrong.

I was told that cross breeds are no more healthy than pedigrees, again, the research clearly show that statisically this is not teh case, cross-breed are more likely to be healthier.

I am called ignorant, I am told I have not done any research, I am told I have bred irresponsibly, and I am the troll.

Well let me tell you, I have bred in the tradition that working dogs have been bred for centuries, the tradition that not only produced the most intelligent and the most athletic, but teh tradition that roots out health problems as a matter of course. A working dog is no good to you if you spend 2 years training it and at 6 years old it cannot run about, or it dies at 10, or it cannot sucessfully mate, or it cannot see.

My (rather large) family has had dogs bred like this all their lives, and none of them have suffered from blindness, HD, major arthritus, personality problems or and other major illness. Most have lived well past 15 without a single days illness, and certainly not with a disabling disease.

Yet here I am faced with the problems that breeders who bred animals for looks, for money, for show created and thrown back at me. It was show breeders who created the large scale problems in some pedigree breeds because they didn't breed for longevity, vitality, intelligence, heath, they bred to best fit a standard, stud that dog, and make lots and lots of money off it, and my methods are immoral.

And yet these people still look down on a cross breed, or breding from dogs in the fashion they have been bred for centruies without major health problems.

Clearly I am arrogant, my dogs are happier and healthier and have a better breeding heritage, yes I am ignorant, to why people would breed such unhealthy lines in the first place, but no, I am not taking responsibility for the issues these breeders have created and I will not be condemned for following the tried and tested practices that have been well established in the hill farms and sheep herding communities for years.

see this infuriates me don't just blame the show guys we rehome on average 200 working springers a year, are these the same working folk who are handing a springer in to rescue next week because its done its cruciate and won't pay to get it repaired, because it won't be able to work again, or the same working breeder that trained there dogs up and then kicked 6 of them out when they had too many dogs in there kennel, but because they had never been anywhere were terrified of everything,, or the same working breeder that is hading a 7 week old pup in next week because the mum jumped in the pen when it was little and damaged its eye, but she can't be ar***ed to take it to a vet, or the litter of puppies handed in last year because they couldn't be sold.

you can justify it to yourself all you want, and i'm glad you've got homes for them all, but are these suitable homes, Have the people owned either of these breeds before, because a working collie and a working springer cross is going to be very hot to handle, and again i ask will you take them back when they do become too hot to handle.

Oh and for the record i own four working springers 2 of which work am well aware what goes on in working circles