After following this thread as best I can, I think the above sums up what it all means for me.


Just reading these last few posts though and thinking about wolves in the wild in different habitats, some harsher than others. It seems to me that if a "pack" doesn't fit in with what we humans think a pack should be like that we make up excuses for as to why that may be. But isn't it just the case the wolves will adapt to various environments and therefore change their behaviour or maybe the structure of their pack to suit? Ultimately these are wild wolves doing what they have to to survive and so we can't assume it not a "proper" pack.
Not sure I've explained what I mean very well .

But again I ask, what has this got to do with anything when my dog is not a wolf and therefore real wolf behaviour is going to have little bearing in how I interact with her?

Hi Promethean: I am not sure how to do this multiple quote system, with the answers underneath each paragraph, so I have hopefully quoted your points, and then I've put my responses in italics underneath. Here goes !:-

I prefer not to use the word dominance, because it implies physical force, which neither a good human alpha male and female owner, nor an alpha male wolf or dog, will use. Our dogs socialise amongst themselves, this is true, but the whole "rank" thing is there the whole time! Watch a group of dogs meeting, greeting, sniffing each other's bums, watch the position of the tail, the carriage of the head, the state of the pupils (are they dilated?). This is how dogs suss out who's what in terms of status.

Sorry Promethean - that did not work very well !

But there is Ben !! Almost every time we go out to areas such as public woods where there are a lot of dogs, there always seems to be at least one or two scraps. Nothing serious, just pistols at dawn, but if you count these as fights, then there certainly is lots of fighting.

But true fighting, where blood is drawn, no, I agree that is, thankfully, quite rare.

But whether you are talking about a scrap or a full blown fight, you can guarantee that pretty much it will have been started by a beta enforcer. Most dogs are betas, of varying levels. I am not sure that the Enforcer is the most common level of beta-ness, I like to think not.

Very well said, bordercollie. I like to think my boy Tai is the perfect example of a reasonably obedient, well behaved, happy and confident dog.

Promethean : maybe the situation is entirely different in the States, where of course per head of population you have a gazillion times more space for recreation than we do.

But here, when our dogs are off lead, meeting and greeting each other, introducing themselves, there is a SHEDLOAD of social implications going down of HUGE significance to the dogs. These dogs are of course not "packs", they are dogs from different "packs" (their human packs) coming together for socialisation. Just as important for our dogs as the exercise they gain from a walk, is the social interaction with their own kind. Without this vital socialisation with their own species, and indeed other humans, our dogs become withdrawn, possibly snappy, bad-tempered and very unhappy dogs.

!!

Good one Mish - I disagree with your implication of course !!

Gosh - it hardly every happens here.

I was once laughed at by a well known trainer in London, he told me I would never make a living in Cornwall as no-one had dog dog aggression problems.

I can walk my 'Pack' (anything up to on the dunes and meet single or groups of dogs and 99% of the time there is no bust up (either from mine or the others)

I have done social walks alot, never any issues.

Wys, Wys, Wys, a human alpha does NOT use force or dominance !! That is going to become my mantra from now on !!

Manners, boundaries, bringing up dogs so they fit into our modern society ... great one, Wys ! THIS IS what I have done with Tai, as Alpha Female. When he came to us just over a year ago, he had no manners but some boundaries. He now pretty well has perfect manners, and knows and accepts all our boundaries set by us. This is being a good Alpha human

I've got to take the wolf out for walkies now, he's desperate he has just told me and needs to go NOW !!

See - he does dominate me after all !!

Back later !