Jess I have just read through this thread again and it may seem that some of us are having a go at you, that really isn't the case .

Many BC owners here have tried to tell you what is best for a BC puppy based on good information and experience, and you still seem to come back with flippant answers and a 'I know what is best attitude' .

What really concerns me is that you are now running a business where people come to you for training and advice, and I wonder if you advise them with the same flippant attitude.

You undoubtedly know a lot about dogs, but please do not think everyone here else knows less than you. There are many very experienced BC owners, I would certainly listen to them, after all we are all here to help and to learn from each other...

Bit off topic but not sure why the farmer would say that? We train our pups from 12 months onwards - which gives the dog a chance to mature mentally. When training a sheepdog initially, no strain is placed on the joints, as they are trained in a confined area (small field or round pen) and only for 5-10 minutes at a time. This is due to the fact that training of this kind mentally tires a collie, rather than physically.

Of course once they are fully trained and mature - generally around 18 months-2 years then they may be required to work all day ... and thrive on it

At 14-15 weeks of age, our pups are generally lolloping around the yard - not going on any walks.

I don't feel people are having a go, I think that people are concerned, and that is allowed.

Also I wish people would stop saying that I felt I SHOULD have a BC. I was waiting for my fourth dog, and the idea struck me that perhaps it was time for a BC - which would enable me to learn more about the breed than just reading and learning from others. I am sure you will agree Patch that there is no better way than practical experience. I have successfully changed the lives of many BC's and their owners, and in the meantime learned about the collie and what makes them tick. The experiment as I meant it was to see at what age collie things start to come out, and if I could do a better job than your average home, that calls me up. So far so good regarding training, but it is early days.
I did not feel I 'should' get a BC, I was interested, and wanted one. Probably how you all felt about the breeds you have?
Mini - please don't worry, I don't recommened clients do anything odd, except to read their ingredient labels and know what is in the food they are choosing.
Advice taken on board, and I have started leaving him behind for the last walk of the day.

Bit off topic but not sure why the farmer would say that? We train our pups from 12 months onwards - which gives the dog a chance to mature mentally. When training a sheepdog initially, no strain is placed on the joints, as they are trained in a confined area (small field or round pen) and only for 5-10 minutes at a time. This is due to the fact that training of this kind mentally tires a collie, rather than physically.Quote Moobil



He was answering to my question as to why they are not started off as pups................I was just enquiring. The point I'm trying to make is that even he expressed 'pupa joints' when small.........sorry perhaps should of explained the conversation between us better.

Just wondering, from interest only, not to worry anyone!

Has anyone experience of a dog having problems directly related to over exercise?

Yes and no, We walked storm to much as a pup to try and tire him out than led to worsening a hip problem he had. The vet said the problem would not have caused him to limp and hurt as much as it should and the exercise had mad this worse as he was still long, so since then I have stuck to the five minute rule and have never had probs.

Storm also was able to cope with loads more as we changed the amount he was given.

Yes I do agree that practical experience is always best - however, for things like finding out what to expect at various ages, research from talking to and reading articles by experienced owners of a breed should create that knowledge first to avoid the unexpected and problems which can come with it.

Getting a dog `to find out what happens when`, especially for people not experienced with a worky minded breed can be a disaster waiting to happen

It also concerns me that, [ and please correct me if I`m remembering incorrectly ], you have a dog which you insist on letting off lead around sheep even though that dog has killed ?

And now you have a BC but no previous experience of the BC mind - you may have worked with some with `issues` but that does`nt mean you understand them Jess - your posts thus far just on this thread making that very clear I`m afraid...

And you are teaching other owners of various breeds who should be able to trust in what they are taught...
Remember, novice owners especially tend to believe what they are told even when what they are being taught may be completely inappropriate - have you told any of your students to do the same level of exercise as you have been doing to your pup for instance ?

Do you tell them its ok to let their dogs off lead around sheep and to keep doing so after they have killed one or more ?

Frankly, I`m very seriously worried about what you are doing Jess, I don`t know how else to put it without it looking like I`m attacking you, I`m just very, very, concerned

*If I have remembered incorrectly and its not you who let/s a dog off lead to kill sheep, I apologise unreservedly in advance and will edit any such reference out of my posts with a public apology making my error clear of course

''research from talking to and reading articles by experienced owners of a breed should create that knowledge first to avoid the unexpected and problems which can come with it. ''

Do you think that I didn't do that!
Having trained with people that are collie mad, and fellow dog trainers who are the same, I knew alot about the collie before I got Louis, which I guess is why I am doing ok so far with him. It is difficult to describe my life story to you, but the joke amongst my fellow trainers is that I didn't much care for the collie 'intensity', and now I can't get enough. Closed minded or what!

Yes you remembered correctly, but the facts are out a little.
I didn't insist on letting my dog off lead to kill sheep, I wanted him to not want to kill sheep.
I did training with several other trainers, with farmers, and with sheep that were not so nice to dogs. I now have experience with the ecollar, and although I would not recommend it, I know why now, as opposed to many who would argue the point of cruelty. I believe personally, that it is crueler to yank necks or use a check chain. However as I said I know why I don't use it, because I have the experience. I have trained traditionally, and I have trained postive, and because of the experience of both, mixed with researching human physcology and behaviour, I know WHY they work and which is the better long term.

yes Jess.........thats why I am so frustrated with your methods.
Our Foster son used to take Skye and Reah for a walk over the park. He is a teenager and is responsible, but like most young people he didn;t take on board the instructions. Anyway I noticed that Skye was stiff legged on the one back leg, as this happened three times I took her to our vets who X-rayed the leg. They couldn't find anything so we were advised to see a specialist in Tanworth 'Willows veterinary clinic'. We we're ordered to go but it was suggested incase she had something which couldn't be found by our own vets. After examinations/tests they told us that she was being exercised to much (she was 6 months then) I even argued at first that it wasn't possiable, then we found out that our foster son was running her after sticks and this caused the prob. He doesn't take them now ...without me...luckily the damage went with rest. Thats why when you say 'prove'
that over exercising is damaging, I say Yes..........I put my beliefs in those specialist that have trained in thier field of work and have spent many years qualifying

Patch hopefully as a person you can see that it is unfair to judge someone based on writing alone. I find it insulting that you even have to ask the question about whether I recommend letting people let there dogs off lead around sheep.

For further info. although you didn't ask, Louis has been around chickens and sheep at the farm for the last few weeks, learning to work with me, while they are around him. WITHOUT my other 'killer' dog. The other two I would not trust around sheep, but they are much more attentive to me than my terrier, who has maimed a sheep. No one but the terrier has ever worn the ecollar.