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Tassle
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14-03-2011, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post

I am sorry that I have failed in achieving my goal - of trying to demonstrate that used correctly and carefully, only for really severe intractable problems. I just wish you could all see before and after videos of my Ben, but we don't have a video camera.
I am glad you have got where you want to be.

However, I can never agree with the methods and again I reiterate - I do not think Ben was an extreme case who deserved this.
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Dobermann
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14-03-2011, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
yup, I agree, which is why both OH and myself have tested it - and because we have bare skin, unlike my double coated furbabies, we can achieve a far better contact and therefore get a "stronger" reaction.

On the highest setting, it is like the punch that you receive from a slendertone machine, it is most uncomfortable, but I would not describe it as pain. To the dog though, who has no idea that it is coming, I fully admit that on the highest setting it is probably extremely unpleasant, but the only reaction from Ben on the two occasions that he had a zap, he yelped, but otherwise was unhurt. He came straight back to OH for titbits, and he got the message. Since then, he has NEVER run away, or run off, he has and I have already described had to have a few rumbles with the vibration pager over the weekend, not for running off, but for being a bit over the top in his protection of Gucci. He is very protective of Little Man, and started to get slightly rough with a bitch staffie cross weimeraner, so OH gave him a rumble. Today, he has been exemplary apparently. Walked past the sheep field which is now occupied with lambing ewes (hole in the fence has been wired up) and both Ben and Tai totally ignored them.

As the days roll by, ben just goes from strength to strength. I can do anything I want to him now, even groom his tail, which he HATES and would turn on you if you tried to do that. If he was so traumatised by the e collar, he would not be the calm, obedient, loving, fantastic dog that we have. He has even stopped jumping up on the bed in the morning now, but waits until he is invited. He and Tai now take it in turns, plus the cat and Gucci pile in as well!

I am just so pleased that my beloved Ben can run free, safely, and we no longer have to constantly worry when he goes out of our line of vision that he is not going to come back, and what is he doing. Everyone has commented on how much calmer and more relaxed the dog is, all our pub friends, the post lady, our neighbours, everyone who knew Ben before.

I am sorry that I have failed in achieving my goal - of trying to demonstrate that used correctly and carefully, only for really severe intractable problems. I just wish you could all see before and after videos of my Ben, but we don't have a video camera.
he yelped to express pain, physical or mental anguish. He came for reassurance from the disturbance and then that insecurity was reinforced with food rewards. Sorry I wasnt there but thats how it reades to me.

overprotective or insecure? Cant you teach your dog to have a sniff and go past if he is too confrontational with other peoples dogs? instead of giving him an electric shock?

If a dogs whole character changes suddenly or over a very short period of time after 'training' something completely unrelated then dont you think you should be concerned about that?

did you use the ecollar to teach him not to jump onto the bed uninvited?

how can he be running free if he will not run off, while not on the lead now?

and why are you allowing him out of your vision and how on earth can you say you dont worry what he is doing out of sight? especially when you said he dosnt run off anymore (in the same post) out of sight is running off!

Gnasher, I am trying not to sound 'off' I really am but what 'mission' was it you wanted to achieve here? For us to accept the use of an ecollar on an abused dog that had an iffy recall?
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ClaireandDaisy
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14-03-2011, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann View Post
...... what 'mission' was it you wanted to achieve here?
I rather think it is something to do with attention.
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Heather and Zak
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14-03-2011, 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
I rather think it is something to do with attention.
I agree. Gnasher makes the e-collar sound like Tinkerbells wand. Only those with half a brain know different.
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Gnasher
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14-03-2011, 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann View Post
he yelped to express pain, physical or mental anguish. He came for reassurance from the disturbance and then that insecurity was reinforced with food rewards. Sorry I wasnt there but thats how it reades to me.

overprotective or insecure? Cant you teach your dog to have a sniff and go past if he is too confrontational with other peoples dogs? instead of giving him an electric shock?

If a dogs whole character changes suddenly or over a very short period of time after 'training' something completely unrelated then dont you think you should be concerned about that?

did you use the ecollar to teach him not to jump onto the bed uninvited?

how can he be running free if he will not run off, while not on the lead now?

and why are you allowing him out of your vision and how on earth can you say you dont worry what he is doing out of sight? especially when you said he dosnt run off anymore (in the same post) out of sight is running off!

Gnasher, I am trying not to sound 'off' I really am but what 'mission' was it you wanted to achieve here? For us to accept the use of an ecollar on an abused dog that had an iffy recall?
I would NEVER allow the use of an e collar on a dog for something as petty as jumping on the bed. Totally over the top. It is as easy as whistling to train a dog like Ben to do anything - EXCEPT when you want him to come. I personally think it is because he was on a running line for the first 3 years of his life in the back garden, I don't know for sure, but I believe he was never taken out for walks, just kept on this running line whilst the owners were out at work. Presumably they brought him into the house when they came home, but I have no idea. I think this is why he just does not want to come when you call him. His father was similar, but because he had never been abused, he would eventually come to you, just in his own time. Ben will come back too, eventually, but in his case eventually means in about half an hour. In the meantime, he would run across the road, and run into sheep fields - empty back then, but now full of lambing ewes. We have no idea whether he would chase sheep, I think not, but he will get shot toute suite if a farmer sees him sniffing around in a field of lambs and ewes at this time of year.

With time, yes, I am sure you are all right, we could train him maybe to have a reasonable recall, but it would take hours of training per day, hours that we do not have. As it is the dogs take up at least 4 hours of OH's time every day, time when he should be earning money doing his picture framing, or trying to get business in.

I feel fully justified in doing what we have done. We would never use the collar for anything else - only for this one problem that we had. I am sorry that I cannot make anyone understand how bad it was.

OH says he is a joy to take out, and he no longer has to worry if he's going to run off at any moment. When he starts to look as if he might, he just calls him to come, and he does. Bearing in mind his breed - mal husky mix - I think that is amazing.
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Gnasher
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14-03-2011, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Heather and Zak View Post
I agree. Gnasher makes the e-collar sound like Tinkerbells wand. Only those with half a brain know different.
Hardly!! But the success rate has been magical
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Gnasher
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14-03-2011, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
I really laugh when people say "they should only be used when all other methods have and failed" there is a perfectly fail safe method to stop your dog running off and that is keeping it on a lead like the majority of sled dog owners do!

You are lazy, so you use the e collar.
No - just the opposite!! If I were lazy, I would just keep him on the lead the whole time. That's a cop out.

Think about it.
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Gnasher
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14-03-2011, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Cop out----as usual.

rune
Would you care to explain to me how a vibration can possibly be 1) cruel or 2) a cop out.

If we needed to zap him because he was running off then we would zap him. But over this last weekend, the vibrating pager was all we had to use to get his attention. He would then obey our verbal command.

I know you are just dying to criticise me just for breathing, but really Rune - do try not to be quite so obvious
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Gnasher
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14-03-2011, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by krlyr View Post
Call a spade a spade - you own an electric collar and if the vibrate button stopped working then your OH would use the "stim" button (again - it's a shock, call it a shock!). Your constant skirting around with e-collars just says to me that you're not totally comfortable with it and you do feel guility about it, enough to dub it a vibration collar, enough to deny it's painful but later admit it is, enough to try to justify your case as "extreme" (you're not hte first to deal with iffy recall!), just not enough to not use it.
I don't feel guilty about it, but yes, you're right, I would much rather that we didn't have to resort to a tool. I hate tools, I hate gadgets, but as we saw it we didn't have a choice. For us it was a last resort. For many, it would not be. Many people would just accept that they were never going to train their dog to have a reliable recall, and keep him for the rest of his life on a lead. I happen to think this is incredibly cruel, and I would NEVER condemn a dog to such a life, any dog, let alone a mal x husky mix like Ben. I cannot afford a rig, they are extremely expensive, in the summer admittedly we bike for miles along the canals at a fair old lick, so that they are cantering a lot of the time to keep up and therefore even Ben stays on track and doesn't try to run off. It is in the winter that we have the problem, he gets bored and runs off. If we were 30 years younger and could run for miles, that would be great, but we are too old and crockety for jogging!!
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Gnasher
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14-03-2011, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
And I find yet another contradiction in one of your posts from another post on another thread.

Here you say your dog KNOWS where the correction comes from, on another post you say he does not?!
You will probably find there is a time difference between the 2 posts? Or I was talking about the past in one of them?
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