Gnasher, I know exactly where you are coming from I just totaly disagree with it
You dont think it hurts that much and you think that because it was over quickly and they are now 'cured' that it is kinder in the long run than you having to spend time training with methods that you dont understand that you have decided are going to fail before you use them

I disagree with that. I dont think an unknown amount of pain is acceptable
I know why this method seems to work and I dont like that, it is very stressful to the dog and quick fix has the chance to break down just as quick

I appreciate the time taken to explain, the problem is I do understand I just totaly do not agree

Yes, it is a shame indeed, sorry if I don't come up to the standards of Karen Pryor, whoever she is! I will google her, she sounds extremely interesting.

I'm sorry also that my dogs' triggers are not tripped by toys, treats or clickers. You will have to believe me when I say they are not. They are far too intelligent to be kept amused for long by one thing. I apologise on their behalf, I can say no more than that.

What dont I understand? I said 12 seconds was a long time to inflict pain and you said - yes you could inflict pain for 12 seconds (I never said you had done that)...........so what am I not understanding??

You have no understanding of a clicker...

But please google Karen Pyror. I would hope you could learn a lot from her.

Not always. Example, when I broke my ankle, they tried to manipulate it back into position. My ankle didn't hurt at all if I kept my leg still. However, it was absolute agony when they tried to manipulate the bone back into place, but as soon as they stopped the pain stopped. They tried five times and each time was the same.

i think you will find its your triggers that are not tripped

mind u whats the point with a 'weekend' dog owner

Ben, you must accept surely that I know my dogs better than anyone else? Unless you have had dealings with "northern breeds" and mixes thereof, you will not understand how intelligent and different they are. You also know me, you know how bloody besotted I am with my dogs, they are my life, I would NEVER do anything to hurt them. If I truly thought that Ben was being permanently, or even semi permanently harmed or damaged in any way by being vibrated by an e collar (remember, so far, no more stims, they are a thing of the past), then I would personally throw the collar in the fire. I am just so frustrated that I am unable to put into words the miracle that I see before my eyes. I swear on my dead mother-in-law and father-in-laws lives, who I loved dearly, that Ben's salvation - at least thus far (I am the first to agree that we are still talking about early days here) - lies in what effectively is now a vibration collar. I hope we never need to zap him again, and that the pure vibration reminds him of what is wanted.

We have had Ben since June and I cannot believe what we have achieved in that short time. Again you will just have to believe me when I say that many people would have really struggled to be able to cope with him at all, let alone get him to the stage where we have. He is his father's son, and without the knowledge that I gained through living with his father for 10 years, I can honestly say I would not have been able to begin to cope with Ben - but Ben is a watered down version of his father, as I keep telling him!! He can't and hasn't dished out anything that his father didn't or hadn't, so we are one step ahead of him. The one thing we needed to do, and that we failed on, was to stop him running off. His father, God bless him, was never obedient, but he NEVER ran off like Ben did. He was disobedient, and his recall was awful, but he did not run off like Ben.

I am sorry that we had to resort to using an e collar, but I do not regret that we did and have. If and when I do, I shall say so, but thus far I have no regrets. But, as I say, it is early days, and I am certainly not going to be complacent.

I have to say that my boy, and alot of other peoples dogs, is not motivated by treats and toys. It does make training him harder and you have to be more inventive (and yes he is too smart for his own good )

You are not alone in that Gnasher.

I am sorry but you are totaly wrong here
Current is the electrons being moved between the two points
voltage is the amount of force avaliable to move those electrons
their values related to each other are determined by the resistance they are having to move tru

The voltage = the current times the resistance

The voltage is set by how much of the power from the battery is let into the system (controled by the dial)

so if you are just turning the dial up and nothing else is changing so the resistance isnt changing then you are increasing the current

and in humans the resistance of the skin can vary from 100000 Ohms (reisitance) to 1000 Ohms - so you do the maths to what effect that will have on the 'killing' current

No not at all. My dogs are not very interested in titbits, toys or clickers.

And what's with the weekend dog owner? My husband is with our dogs 24/7. I really apologise for the fact that I now have to go out to work, whereas before I too was self-employed working from home.

You really are the lowest of low sniping at me like that. Through no fault of my own, my life had to take a dramatic turn, but NEVER NEVER NEVER have my dogs past or present EVER suffered in any way.

You really have cut deep with that one.