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View Poll Results: Poll - Do you agree you should be alpha male over your dog?
Yes 70 39.33%
No 71 39.89%
Other, please specify 37 20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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labradork
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20-04-2009, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
It has been proved through the mitochondrial RNA that ALL dogs are the direct descendents of 4 female wolves.

Facts are facts, they cannot be altered. Dogs are tame wolves.

However, what we can debate about is how much of the "wolf" character is still there in our dogs. I say it is still there - scratch the surface of a Chi, metaphorically speaking of course, and therein lies the wolf. Good ! Wolves are wonderful creatures, and I for one revel in the fact that my dog's ancestors from tens of thousands of years ago were these magnificent creatures. (With Tai of course it is a bit more recent, with him being a Mal/Sibe cross, both of which were originally bred from wolves).

I have had many years of personal experience with my old boy Hal, who was a high % wolf cross, and many more years of interacting with domesticated wolves - some tame, some living as near the wild state as can possibly be achieved. It is fascinating to watch their behaviour, and compare it to our own pooches. I love watching wildlife programmes featuring wolves, I have recorded as many of them as I can and watch them over and over again. It is as if I were watching a pack of, say, Mals - not the hunting scenes of course, but the scenes where the wolves are relaxed and at leisure.

I am firmly of the camp that our dogs are domesticated wolves - their DNA proves it and so does the mitonchondrial RNA.
Chimpanzees share between 95-98% of their DNA with us humans, but that doesn't make me a chimpanzee.

Dogs may have evolved from wolves, but the key word there is evolved. Over that 10,000 years they have been domesticated and consequently changed their physiology and most relevantly, their behaviour, as a result. Do domestic dogs still retain many of the same instincts as wolves? yes. Do domestic dogs behave in a way that is so similar to wolves (bearing in mind that they have been separated from them for 10,000 years), that we should base all behavioural knowledge/training techniques on this fact? NO! how a WILD CANID behaves is of ZERO relevance to how a DOMESTIC dog should behave.

People seriously need to move on from this old-school way of thinking. We need to focus on how dogs behave, not wolves, when we train our pets. These silly wolf misconceptions really are not doing our dogs any favors.
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SamRottLabb
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20-04-2009, 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
Chimpanzees share between 95-98% of their DNA with us humans, but that doesn't make me a chimpanzee.

Dogs may have evolved from wolves, but the key word there is evolved. Over that 10,000 years they have been domesticated and consequently changed their physiology and most relevantly, their behaviour, as a result. Do domestic dogs still retain many of the same instincts as wolves? yes. Do domestic dogs behave in a way that is so similar to wolves (bearing in mind that they have been separated from them for 10,000 years), that we should base all behavioural knowledge/training techniques on this fact? NO! how a WILD CANID behaves is of ZERO relevance to how a DOMESTIC dog should behave.

People seriously need to move on from this old-school way of thinking. We need to focus on how dogs behave, not wolves, when we train our pets. These silly wolf misconceptions really are not doing our dogs any favors.

Of course it doesn't make you a chimpanzee but we do share the same triats as them and as Gnasher said it is the same for dogs and wolfs. It is not a silly old-school misconception but fact.
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labradork
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20-04-2009, 12:36 PM
Of course it doesn't make you a chimpanzee but we do share the same traits as them and as Gnasher said it is the same for dogs and wolfs. It is not a silly old-school misconception but fact.
Some traits. Sorry, but it is old school to apply behaviorual studies of WILD ANIMALS and apply them to domestic animals. Of course SOME traits will be shared, but animals that have been domesticated for thousands of years will not share all the behavioural traits of a wild animal. Evolution and selective breeding are marvelous things.
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SamRottLabb
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20-04-2009, 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
Some traits. Sorry, but it is old school to apply behaviorual studies of WILD ANIMALS and apply them to domestic animals. Of course SOME traits will be shared, but animals that have been domesticated for thousands of years will not share all the behavioural traits of a wild animal. Evolution and selective breeding are marvelous things.

If a dog was left to its own devices with no human interaction it would revert back to it's natural instincts and have traits of a wolf in the way it behaved. It would hunt, fend for itself against food, boundries (of it's terratory) etc. I am not saying that they share all behavioural traits but some.

There was a dog recently stranded on an island after being washed overboard from a boat. It managed to swim to an island and live and survive for 3 months (forgive me if the time length is wrong) on killing and eating the island's goats. If that's not reverting back to it's natural instincts then........ This was a domesticated, family pet........

In no way is it old-school to understand and apply positive training methods based on their factual simularities.
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Gnasher
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20-04-2009, 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
do you have the link/referance gnasher?
im interested in stuff like this
My OH is the scientist in our household, not me, but I will ask him. Or you could try googling "mitochondrial RNA dogs" or something like that, and it should come up.

I can't ask him at the moment as he is knee deep in putting together a huge Bundle for Counsel in a legal case, but I will when I can.
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Gnasher
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20-04-2009, 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Well on the only occasion I was up close and personal with a wolf I wasn`t getting any body language or behaviour I recognised from having dogs. It`s a bit like comparisons between dairy cows and bison IMO - yes they are the same species...only different. And TBH unless you`re going to live and behave in the same manner as when wolves first entered the cave you as a human are different as well.

eta - incidentally I thought dogs had smaller brains than wolves? So there must be some differences.
Well, all I can say is your eyes were closed ! You've got to be kidding C & D !! Admittedly, my chosen breed is wolfey guys, so obviously my dogs are going to display far more wolfey characteristics than 100% wolves, but even so, there is so much that is so similar if you really, really LOOK and empty your mind completely of everything you have ever learned about wolves, both fact and fiction. You should be able to see the dog in the wolf, and the wolf in the dog.
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labradork
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20-04-2009, 01:28 PM
Well, all I can say is your eyes were closed !
So are yours judging by your close-minded replies.
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labradork
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20-04-2009, 01:34 PM
If a dog was left to its own devices with no human interaction it would revert back to it's natural instincts and have traits of a wolf in the way it behaved. It would hunt, fend for itself against food, boundries (of it's terratory) etc.
Based on what? while dogs maintain many instincts, through selective breeding they have lost just as many. Many, many breeds wouldn't last 5 minutes if left to fend for themselves. Can you see an English Bulldog or a Chihuahua tackling a deer/other large prey? or most breeds at all for that matter (I have watched my Lab chase a deer that sprung out on us once, and it was pretty funny watching him lollop for 50 yards before giving up!).
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Gnasher
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20-04-2009, 01:37 PM
Labradork : wild wolves and domestic dogs share virtually 100% DNA - to be precise, 99.8%. The fraction of a percentage difference is behavioural, which accounts of course for the slight behavioural differences between wolves and dogs. There are behavioural differences, of course there are, even between domesticated wolves and dogs. I lived for 10 years with a high % wolf cross, and believe me his behaviour was like nothing I had even seen in a dog before, and I have over 40 years experience of living with dogs. So that tiny percentage difference does indeed do just that ... make a difference.

However, "behavioural" is just the icing on the cake. The deep down physiological and psychological makeup of both wolf and dog is exactly the same ... except of course those traits that have been bred into dogs by man. Such as labradors being brilliant swimmers because of their webbed feet, and a desire to retrieve, GSDs to guard, GSPs to point etc. etc. All this is "icing on the cake". You could train a wolf to do all these things just the same. I trained my tame wolf to do many things - I have to say though, certainly not to retreive game !

I know of a puppy owned by a friend of mine who was a little wild girl. She was a mongrel, and she and her litter mates were raised in an outdoor kennel inside a run. The dam and sire lived with the pups, exactly as in a wild wolf pack. The pups were not handled, they lived as little wild wolf cubs, digging a den under the kennel so that whenever humans approached, they were able to escape underground. My friend's puppy was initially completely wild, but after a few days became hugely attached to her close family, and the other family pets, but was absolutely terrified of strangers and strange places. She loved going for walks with the other dogs, but would freak every time she saw a human in the distance. My friend in the end had to return the little girl from whence she came, to be reunited with her father and mother and as far as I know is happy and settled. She was totally unable to desensitise her to the fear of humans - exactly as if she had been a wolf. Wolves living in the wild and in semi-domestication, all possess a "trigger" which kicks in at around 3 weeks. If a wolf cub has not seen a human face, and been handled by a human, before this age or whenever their eyes first open, the natural instinctive fear of wolves for man kicks in, and you will, never ever ever be able to remove that fear. In other words, in wolves and domesticated dogs, the first thing they must see after their eyes have opened is a human, and a human doing nice things such as cuddling, caressing etc, otherwise they will for ever have a fear of humans. It would seem that domesticated dogs can still carry this "fear gene" as well, judging from my friend's little girl.

This is what will happen to a dog if it is deprived of human handling from birth - basically, they can Go Bush - and sadly, this little girl did.
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CheekyChihuahua
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20-04-2009, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
Based on what? while dogs maintain many instincts, through selective breeding they have lost just as many. Many, many breeds wouldn't last 5 minutes if left to fend for themselves. Can you see an English Bulldog or a Chihuahua tackling a deer/other large prey? or most breeds at all for that matter (I have watched my Lab chase a deer that sprung out on us once, and it was pretty funny watching him lollop for 50 yards before giving up!).
To be honest Labradork, I don't think a Chi would even bother. Far too much hard work for them, to chase a deer A couple of my Chis will play "fetch" but the rest just look at me when I throw a ball for them, it's like "what you throwing that for then. You don't think I'm gonna chase it after you've deliberately thrown it?" I imagine some other breeds would be very different though
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