I didn't really want to get mixed up in this because it was quite obvious it was going to go the way of all e-collar threads.

As Malka says it is doubtful that you will ever win because the majority of us are so against these collars and certainly against cruelty.
As she also said this isn't a discussion about training methods but about e-collars

But Malka has every right to post, Firstlight - this may be your thread, as in you started it, but this invites comments and they are not all going to be what you wish for.

No-one can agree on proper use, though. ........ some swear by using full high level shock, some swear the correct way is using pos. punishment and negative reinforcement... to my knowledge, there IS no actual "proper way" to use it.

And any way is unpleasant for the dog and shows a lack of empathy with dogs.

I must admit, I don't actually see any sign at all of you wishing to learn about other methods, you seem to only be interested in talking about yours, to be fair. Maybe I am wrong. I have spoken to some shock collar users who were open minded but IME mostly shock collar users are not really into learning new things, esp. those who start posting early about their methods.

I cannot imagine choosing to hurt a dog on purpose especially for sport.

Perhaps you can defend this and explain why you think is it OK to use the shock collar for this purpose?

Wys

Got to agree with all of this, i will readily admit i am against them, i think there are far better ways to train a dog, but i base my views on what i've seen with my own eyes, not what anyone wants to tell me, i honestly can't see why any dog lover would find it morally or ethically sound to inflict pain on another being to bend them to your will, and lets face it you're talking to win competitions, why because it puts $'s on your pups?

Thank you Lizzy, you actually (almost) answered my question, but you were unclear about the "life in jeopardy" part, which was the critical element.

I have had the same experience with a dog chasing a flyaway, only in my case the road the dog was heading for at warp speed was occupied by a loaded ten-wheeler which was also traveling at excessive speed, and the dog's life was most definitely at risk; there was absolutely no doubt that her "mistake" was going to turn her into street pizza.

Her " mistake" was that she failed the command to sit to flush. I was able to reinforce that command via the collar, and thus save her life. This use of an aversive did absolutely nothing to inhibit her drive, because she clearly understood,via proper training, that her "mistake" caused the shock; not the road, not the bird, but her failure to do what she had been trained to do. I recalled her from the sit and we happily continued our hunt, and the only result of the use of the aversive was that she did not make any more "mistakes".

This was the dog I described in an earlier post, the one that spent her 13 years giving me gray hairs. There is no way she would have survived past the age of two if I had lacked the ability to apply brakes. I condition all commands to maintain behavioral balance via the the three principles of training, but I primarily use it to keep my dogs safe.

Now Lizzy, I know this is an imposition on your time, but would you be so kind as to tell me how you would have reacted in the situation I described?

so the car that swerved to avoid her wasn't life threatening????, you weren't there and actually you're wrong !!! she did exactly what she's trained to do, which was stop to shot, mark the bird as it fell and retrieve, all this happened in the blink of an eye she was on her way back before i could get the whistle in my mouth to blow the stop whistle, there are two issues here, the bird should not have been shot in where it could fall into the road, and the handler needed to be quicker, as a consequence this peg is no longer used,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, see no shocking required, i'm out you are just trying to force your opinion,

ETA Shall i tell you how we stopped her running in in the early days,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,, simple, she'll do anything for a tennis ball, show her a ball and she'll stop anything.

I would respectfully suggest you keep your cruel training methods on your own side of the pond, thankfully even the top triallers in this country are moving away from such methods thank god.

If I'm reading your post correctly, Firstlight, your dog took off after the bird and you reinforced a sit command mid-run using the collar?

[QUOTE=Wysiwyg;2656510]Not always correct, surprisingly.
I've studied some US vids re. shock collar training and some trainers do in fact WANT the dog to know the shock comes from them.

They did give a reason - I think it was because they "needed to know they could not get away with doing it wrong" or something similar to that

Pretty sickening to watch and listen to, in fact.

Wys
x[/QUOTE

Of course it's sickening, it is also an entirely WRONG goal. Who made the vids?

No need to get your knickers in a knot Lizzy, I am not a mind reader. I was responding to the post of yours that I quoted. Regardless of your opinion of me and my training, it's a wee bit unfair to blame me for a response that was unsatisfactory due to incomplete information from the poster, no?

And a clarification for those of you who are still reading: My training is sit to flush, not shot. The flush precedes the shot, and a dog who waits for the shot to sit runs the risk of being killed or badly injured if it leaps after the bird, especially on a low flush. Also, the dog is trained to maintain the sit until given the command to retrieve.

Yes Brierley, I repeated the sit whistle just prior to the shock. I could have also stopped her with a recall whistle but I chose to use the command she messed up on.

No dog should be at risk because no shot should be taken if you can't see blue sky behind the bird, not on an english shoot anyway , but then thats safe shooting