Dog crate at night

Hi all,
I haven't really read much about crate training but a friend of mine did it with her pup and it seemed a good idea. When I got my Loki (he's now just turned 5 months - I've owned him for 1 month) I got out a playpen I had left over from my baby (Babydan Babyden) - its a metal pen with a proper stairgate in it so he can get in and out easily. Unlike a proper dog crate it doesn't have a 'lid'.

I'm beginning to think it's too big, but am not sure. He has ample room for a bed, he also has about the same amount of space again which I have been using for a water bowl and a puppy pad.
I've seen articles which say it should be big enough for him to obviously stand up in and turn around but they've mentioned there shouldn't be too much space or he will relieve himself which will extend the housetraining period.

He certainly seems to be doing that - I go down to him as soon as I hear him but he's always peed on the puppy pad by the time I'm down. Should I be making his crate smaller so he can't move from his actual bedding area to stop him from having somewhere to relieve himself?

The crate was never intended as a long term thing, just a housetraining and getting through the troublesome puppy stage!
Thanks

Hi Suzy I hate puppy pads and prefer to take puppies outside to soil.
many of the points you raise are covered in this thread

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=121392

Thanks! That thread does answer some questions. We don't puppy pad anywhere else - I guess I put the pad in the crate as I figured he would't be able to hold it and it was like I was with my babies when toilet training - a pad there 'just incase' to make cleaning easier. It's not like that though - I can see I'm saying to him that its okay to pee inside! Not the intention!
I shall rearrange his playpen/crate before tonight. Thanks

Hi Suzy If you are leaving your puppy overnight and it needs to relieve itself but is confined in a small crate it will have no option but to soil in its bed. This can lead to a puppy eating its own feces. Some puppies are able to wait longer than others without going out and never soil in their beds

If you leave your puppy in the playpen with a separate area in which to sleep and soil this will at least prevent it from soiling in its bed.

I prefer to get up with a puppy and to take it outside (as explined in the link I posted ) this way the puppy I am training doesn't have chance to soil in the house.

Your puppy has got used to soiling in the house on puppy pads which may have already extended the house training period, now you need to teach it to go outside and I would get rid of the puppy pads.

You need to be as sure as you can that your puppy is 'empty' when you leave it last thing at night. To do this I would take him a short walk preferably to an area frequented by other dogs. Their scent will prompt your puppy to relieve itself , then you can make the experience rewarding by giving your puppy a treat (a tiny bit of cheese or chicken) and lots of praise so he will want to repeat it.

Also try to make sure he doesn't have a chance to soil in the house during the day by taking him out at times when he is most likely to want to relieve himself, that is first thing in the morning/last thing at night/ straight after food / after play/excitement/ about an hour after he last went out. Always praise/ treat whenever he goes. Once he has learnt to go outside the treats should be given randomly then not at all but always give praise.

Loki hasn't pooped in the house for nearly a month.
A while ago I started getting up before I knew he had wee-ed, took him out quietly and he relieved himself outside then went to bed again (in his crate) without a fuss. I went down asap in the morning when it was time to get up and he still had wet on his pad.
Looking at photos, both on that other thread and on google, the crates other people have seem to be the same size as the bed with enough room for bed, toys, water but without an en-suite, as it were.
This is all soooo hard.

A lot of people don't understand crates. Leaving a young puppy in a small crate with out food or water restricts its activity slowing down its body processes. That allows it to comfortably go much longer without relieving itself. There is a limit. Some puppies may be 3 months old before they can make it over night. Until they can, some people even set an alarm and get up in the middle of the night before the puppy is forced to foul its crate.

We have had a new puppy ever year since 1991. Most of them were only 7 weeks old when we got them. For many we did have to get up in the night for a few weeks. We used to start puppies in a 36'' crate. We now use a 24'' one and block of much of it. I haven't kept records, but I think they are making it overnight more now.

Before I retired, we usually left young puppies 4-5 hours in the day time. That is far longer than many say your can, but they had very few accidents. Remember, the main purpose of the crate is working with the puppy's body to keep it comfortable. We have extensive, successful experience with puppies in small crates.

You block off much of it? How much space does your puppy have available to it?

TBH I used a crate for a full sized Ben when I got him and I didnt block it off, he had plenty of room to move but he was clean through the night within a week (and that was after being in the rescue where they learnt to play in their poo)
Mia (who was older) is crated in a huge crate so she can sprawl out and she has never gone to the toilet in there and I think that is because although it is large it is also where she is fed so it would be gross to go to the loo on your dining table

I read all that about a tiny crate, I think it has to be small enough so they cant run around in it but they should be comfy, able to move a little

How horrible to be crated all night and most of the day in a crate you can barely even turn round in!

I adjusted the size of his crate so it was small and then looked at it a while - felt so bad that my poor pup would have such a small amount of room that I made it bigger again!!
I've removed the puppy pad and covered the whole base with bedding - washing machine will have to be empty tomorrow morning just in case!!
I will set my alarm earlier than usual and drag myself out of bed!
I am suffering from depression, splitting with my partner of 15 years and have a very stressful job (teacher in a school I hate) so sleep is something I treasure and rarely get enough of, but he's worth it!
Do you think that one day I might get a sunday morning lie in again????

Exactly! Labman hasn't yet answered my question so I can't be certain of the space they have BUT if his pups are crated for the long periods of time he has previously mentioned in tiny spaces in which they can barely move, I'm surprised if their growing bodies and limbs don't suffer some physical problems.