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Stormey
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20-08-2008, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Nor do I, to much coverage and money involved for them.

Lets face it, the BBC re in the business of making money, they are ruthless in the pursuit for ratings..

Do you think they bought and aired that programme last night to bring awareness to the GP over the practices of bad breeding ....

No, of cause they did not, they take a calculated risk, when buying programees... as to whether it will give them good viewing, and ratings...nothing more.
It will imo also improve the ratings for crufts, as people in this country love a freakshow so you will get people tuning in to watch and pick at who may not have before.

I am not saying crufts is a freakshow but it was made out to be one last night.
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Stormey
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20-08-2008, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by megan57collies View Post
Whatever the BBC do, Crufts will survive. Even if they lost the TV financial support. The usual sponsors tend to continue as it is such a well attended event. The KC could afford to run the show anyway. LKA is held there each year albeit in three of the halls as opposed to five but with the tradestand contributions and the large entry figures. Double and more of other Champ Shows then the show will survive. It was going and popular before the BBC got their hands on it and it'll continue to survive.
I don't really watch the televised programmes much anyway as I cringe at some of the comments the presenters say. They also seem to have reduced the televising of the other many things that go on at Crufts. Fair doe's watching the group is nice as often I know of someone that is in the group, but otherwise the agility and other displays are far more entertaining than watching dogs run a triangle round the ring unless it's a new breed I've not seen before. Crufts is the biggest dog show in the world. They will always get sponsors whether it's from here or overseas.
They will get sponsors but it will be for a lot less. As there logos/products will only be shown at the event and on flyers/adverts and not the tv audiance.
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Ripsnorterthe2nd
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20-08-2008, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Brundog View Post
Personally, I wont be watching it again. I am not a dog show fan anyway, and realistically the program confirmed what I felt. I think its awful to see dogs like the EBT covered in talc or chalk or whatever it is to make them whiter, to watch dogs who are supposed to be the best of their breed huffing and puffing round the ring.

It makes me sad that the people are competing in what is basically a beauty competition and it cant take into consideration the health of the breed as it doesnt ask for health tests etc. As long as your dog looks how it should for the breed standard then they can trot round the ring. If it collapses afterwards that doesnt matter!

I think there will be many people who will look at it completely differently after that program.

I would like to see Crufts become more about educating people on breed traits and temperament, evaluating all the aspects of the dog including health and temperament and actually awarding the dog who is the best all rounder rather than the best looking !

For example i would rather see more agility and challenges that actually interact the dog than people standing in a ring posing.
The thing is though that programme showed the extreme end of the showing spectrum. Of course there will always be those out there that do things selfishly with little thought for the animals welfare. But rather than condemn us all, perhaps it would be better to use the programme to highlight the problems, get rid of the scum of the earth breeders and use the excellent breeders to continue Crufts ,and showing, with a dogs health as paramount.

Not all show breeders are selfish, idiotic morons (like those shown in the programme), there are many, many breeders who love their dogs with all their heart and only want the best for them.

For me my dogs health and well being will always come first and winning rosettes coming in right at the bottom. I go to shows and show my dog a] because it's a great way to spend time out and about with her and b] because as a future breeder I want to know if my dog is a good enough example of the breed to breed from. Isla doesn't win a massive amount at shows because she's bred with the original purpose of the breed in mind and as a result isn't as exaggerated as most show Springers. I personally see this as a good thing, because even though most judges don't find her exaggerated enough, at least I know she still resembles the breed she's meant to be by getting placed in the first place.

So to answer the orignal question, I think the future of Crufts (and dog showing in general) is fine, but breeders will have to move with the times and start putting the dogs health and well being first.
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mse2ponder
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20-08-2008, 08:22 PM
If the BBC did pull it, I agree with Stormey that it might not operate on the same level, but I'm not sure that it would 'suffer' for it. There's an awful lot of surplus rubbish/pagentry/rubbish for television, and I actually think if they had less money to throw around, it might even benefit the show.

I'm not a huge fan of Crufts anyway; there are some breeds that I just cringe at, but I would go again as there are lots of positive aspects to the show aswell. Crufts is only a dog show. People aren't going to stop showing because of a TV programme higlighting its negative side, so whether it would matter if the BBC pulled it is doubtful.
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MaryS
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20-08-2008, 08:31 PM
Crufts is not an exhibitor's show....hellish to get around, with or without a dog. It is there for the sponsors and organisers and visitors. Champ show entries are right down this year, across all breeds, so I doubt BBC coverage will make one jot of difference.

Mary
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Jackie
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20-08-2008, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by MaryS View Post
Crufts is not an exhibitor's show....hellish to get around, with or without a dog. It is there for the sponsors and organisers and visitors. Champ show entries are right down this year, across all breeds, so I doubt BBC coverage will make one jot of difference.

Mary
True!!!!!!!
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Brundog
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20-08-2008, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd View Post
The thing is though that programme showed the extreme end of the showing spectrum. Of course there will always be those out there that do things selfishly with little thought for the animals welfare. But rather than condemn us all, perhaps it would be better to use the programme to highlight the problems, get rid of the scum of the earth breeders and use the excellent breeders to continue Crufts ,and showing, with a dogs health as paramount.

Not all show breeders are selfish, idiotic morons (like those shown in the programme), there are many, many breeders who love their dogs with all their heart and only want the best for them.

For me my dogs health and well being will always come first and winning rosettes coming in right at the bottom. I go to shows and show my dog a] because it's a great way to spend time out and about with her and b] because as a future breeder I want to know if my dog is a good enough example of the breed to breed from. Isla doesn't win a massive amount at shows because she's bred with the original purpose of the breed in mind and as a result isn't as exaggerated as most show Springers. I personally see this as a good thing, because even though most judges don't find her exaggerated enough, at least I know she still resembles the breed she's meant to be by getting placed in the first place.

So to answer the orignal question, I think the future of Crufts (and dog showing in general) is fine, but breeders will have to move with the times and start putting the dogs health and well being first.
completely fair points, but unfortunately the organises/kc/breed clubs whoever is responsible for allowing the "bad" breeders and practices in and not saying anything about their actions, eg: the Best in Show Cav winner on the programme last night - the breed club were effectively closing ranks and supporting that woman !!

By doing that THEY are ruining it for the genuine people who love their dogs and want other people to see how beautiful they are.

So if they refuse to kick out the dead wood then there is no way for it to get better, as its hypocritical, whats the point of anyone doing tests if the "top" breeders get away with churning out sick dogs and culling ones that they dont consider good enough.
Thats what I object to, and its those people with all the so called knowledge and the judges who mentor the new recruits so they are all being educated the wrong way !
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Shona
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20-08-2008, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by megan57collies View Post
Whatever the BBC do, Crufts will survive. Even if they lost the TV financial support. The usual sponsors tend to continue as it is such a well attended event. The KC could afford to run the show anyway. LKA is held there each year albeit in three of the halls as opposed to five but with the tradestand contributions and the large entry figures. Double and more of other Champ Shows then the show will survive. It was going and popular before the BBC got their hands on it and it'll continue to survive.
I don't really watch the televised programmes much anyway as I cringe at some of the comments the presenters say. They also seem to have reduced the televising of the other many things that go on at Crufts. Fair doe's watching the group is nice as often I know of someone that is in the group, but otherwise the agility and other displays are far more entertaining than watching dogs run a triangle round the ring unless it's a new breed I've not seen before. Crufts is the biggest dog show in the world. They will always get sponsors whether it's from here or overseas.
I think this just about covers my thoughts on things
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Ripsnorterthe2nd
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20-08-2008, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by Brundog View Post
completely fair points, but unfortunately the organises/kc/breed clubs whoever is responsible for allowing the "bad" breeders and practices in and not saying anything about their actions, eg: the Best in Show Cav winner on the programme last night - the breed club were effectively closing ranks and supporting that woman !!

By doing that THEY are ruining it for the genuine people who love their dogs and want other people to see how beautiful they are.

So if they refuse to kick out the dead wood then there is no way for it to get better, as its hypocritical, whats the point of anyone doing tests if the "top" breeders get away with churning out sick dogs and culling ones that they dont consider good enough.
Thats what I object to, and its those people with all the so called knowledge and the judges who mentor the new recruits so they are all being educated the wrong way !
Exactly! So rather than people (not referring to you personally) condemning showing altogether (eg BBC pulling the plug on Crufts, making the assumption that dog shows are beauty contests etc), would it not be far better to support the good breeders and bring dog showing into this millennium?

I don't take my dog to a dog show to try and show everyone how beautiful she is, I take her because I want to know how I can make her breed even better - in all respects. That is what future showing should be about. I know I've said this a hundred times before, but breeding for the whole breed is the only way you can better a breed. Breeding for only one aspect (be it money, looks, working ability etc) will always land you and, more importantly the breed, in trouble.
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MaryS
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20-08-2008, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd View Post
Exactly! So rather than people (not referring to you personally) condemning showing altogether (eg BBC pulling the plug on Crufts, making the assumption that dog shows are beauty contests etc), would it not be far better to support the good breeders and bring dog showing into this millennium?

I don't take my dog to a dog show to try and show everyone how beautiful she is, I take her because I want to know how I can make her breed even better - in all respects. That is what future showing should be about. I know I've said this a hundred times before, but breeding for the whole breed is the only way you can better a breed. Breeding for only one aspect (be it money, looks, working ability etc) will always land you and, more importantly the breed, in trouble.
Excellent reply!
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