| View Poll Results: Which CM methods do you use on your dog? | |||
| Do you make sure your dog has enough exercise? |
   
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26 | 68.42% |
| Do you use "calm Energy" when handling your dogs? |
  
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7 | 18.42% |
| Have you ever used Foot tapping for attention? |
  
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1 | 2.63% |
| Have you ever used Foot tapping for correction? |
  
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0 | 0% |
| Have you ever used "tsstg" for attention |
  
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1 | 2.63% |
| Have you ever used "tsstg" for correction |
  
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1 | 2.63% |
| Have you ever used the "hand bite" for attention |
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0 | 0% |
| Have you ever used the "hand bite" for correction |
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0 | 0% |
| Do you use prong collars |
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0 | 0% |
| Do you use the illusion collar, or other NONslip slipcollar |
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0 | 0% |
| Have you ever used flooding to overcome your dogs fear |
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0 | 0% |
| Have you ever pinned your dog to the floor |
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1 | 2.63% |
| Have you ever pinned your dog to the fllor for any reason other than aggression |
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1 | 2.63% |
| Do you alpha roll your dog? |
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0 | 0% |
| Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details. | |||
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Location: Edinburgh, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 91
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06-10-2009, 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg 
Yes I'd definitely dispute that.
If they do, they are no way positive trainers, at all.
Wys
x
That's the corner stone of positive punishment.
The problem with saying positive or negative is that it is not precise. It needs to be paired with reward and punishment.
- positive reward is giving a reward ie a treat
- positive punishment is giving a punishment ie stringing a dog up so it can't breathe
- negative reward is removing a punishment ie stopping stringing a dog up when it relaxes
- negative punishment is removing a reward ie removing attention
Trainers tend to use either positive reward and negative punishment or positive punishment and negative reward. You can just use positive reward - however it's less effective than using a combination.
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Location: Edinburgh, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 91
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06-10-2009, 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
Sorry Scarter but I think you are being rude to Wys who was asking a valid question
The way you post makes it sound like you are saying positive training didnt work for you
But then when questioned it seems the methods you are using now that are working are what most of us would consider to be positive training
I think terms are muddled up here so I will clarify what I - and I think many positive trainers mean by positive and negative
Reward - something that makes the behaviour more likely to happen
Punishment - something that makes the behaviour less likely to happen (not just hitting or pinning or agression - could just be if dog jumps up he stops getting attention)
Positive - something added
Negative - something taken away
Positive reward - dog does something something good happens - makes the dog more likley to do it again
Negative reward - dog does something and bad things stop happening - ear pinch lessens, choke chain releases
Positive punishment - Dog does something and something bad happens to it, dog chews book, you shout at dog
Negative punishment - Dog does something and good things go away - as above where dog bounces up and stops getting fuss
Positive training tends to be a balance of positive reward and negative punishment
Lots of what you see on CM is Negative reward and positive punishment - if the tssstt, foot tap, hand bite or whatever make a dog less likely to do what it was doing then it is considered punishment
Example is shadow, he barks at another dog and CM applies positive punishment by foot tapping, shadow starts lunging and struggling, CM uses negative reward - only slackening the lead when Shadow stops lunging
Note - if something you are using as punishment +ve or -ve isnt causing the behaviour to become less then it is not effective punishment it is nagging or abuse and you should stop and think the problem better
It would seem that great minds think alike (or fools seldom differ?)
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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06-10-2009, 03:25 PM
I was thinking about the BNP thing here too
Only problem was there was a thread on here a while back where people WERE actually SUPPORTing the BNP just the way you said it
Looking at the little picture and how reasonable some of the policies can sound - without looking at the actual bigger picture and seeing how out of order their main founding belief is
I would never recomend anyone use CM's method - because if you find being calm and exercising your dog works then one day you get a difficult dog what is to stop you using alpha rolls and 'illusion' collars - I mean his other method works and so this one must too
I have never met a trainer who didnt recomend you being calm - our agility trainer is always going on about the tone of your voice and your body position
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Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
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06-10-2009, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by Fi
Nonsense.
No, positive trainers do NOT use hanging etc.
If you think they do, then you are wrong.
Or am I misunderstanding you?
Wys
x
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Location: Scottish Borders
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 13,902
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06-10-2009, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
Hali
I was thinking about the BNP thing here too
Only problem was there was a thread on here a while back where people WERE actually SUPPORTing the BNP just the way you said it
Looking at the little picture and how reasonable some of the policies can sound - without looking at the actual bigger picture and seeing how out of order their main founding belief is
I would never recomend anyone use CM's method - because if you find being calm and exercising your dog works then one day you get a difficult dog what is to stop you using alpha rolls and 'illusion' collars - I mean his other method works and so this one must too
I have never met a trainer who didnt recomend you being calm - our agility trainer is always going on about the tone of your voice and your body position
(just realised my fingers/brain were having a dizzy time as I put BMP
)I started thinking about it trying to clarify my own views on CM....there is much that I've seen (particularly in the more recent programmes) which I don't object to at all and for that reason I've been sat on the fence for quite a long time. But I entirely agree about the bigger picture and also the natural progression -'that worked, so why don't I try the other things too'.
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Location: Elsewhere
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,227
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06-10-2009, 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Out of interest, can anyone enlighten me as to what rubbing a person's bumps means?
I am wondering if it refers to the brain, but it's a wild guess
Apparently I am not due the courtesy of an explanation. No problem, but I am wondering what it is as my first thought was, I have to say, rubbing the mammary area! which I am sure it is not!
Wys
x
I admire your patience.........I am of the 'lifes too short' camp
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Location: London
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 220
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06-10-2009, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by scarter
Not at all. I haven't asked wys to put herself out to answer any questions for me. There's nothing I want from her. It's the other way around
I can only presume by your lack of response to the question that you are ingnorant, and don't know the difference between positive and negative punishment. Your loss.
*shrug*
Originally Posted by rune
I have just read the pack dogs histories on CM's website.
Only 3 or 4 of them are/were aggressive dogs. Most were young dogs or pups when he took them on.
He doesn't do a lot for the pitbull image by marvelling at a group of three living happily together either!
It isn't difficult to introduce a screwed up dog into a stable group.
I find myself having less admiration for him than I did before.
rune
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Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
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06-10-2009, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Lionhound
It means someone needs their head examined.
Wys
x
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Location: Edinburgh, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 91
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06-10-2009, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean, but you have just said that positive trainers do hang dogs.
No, positive trainers do NOT use hanging etc.
If you think they do, then you are wrong.
Or am I misunderstanding you?
I'm just saying that the positive and negative points are used as shorthand for the type of training. However as terms they aren't exactly correct.
positive trainers CAN actually use hanging etc. they are using positive punishment.
However positive reward trainers do not use this form of training for whatever reason.
I was just trying to point out that the terms used can very quickly get murky if you just use generic language.
I use punishment in my training. Do I hit my dog? Certainly not. However if he isn't doing what I want then I will ignore him, give him some chill out time or with hold the toy that he is being a pest over. Many people would not say that this is punishment. However in the strictest meaning of the terms it is. It is negative punishment.
The problem seems to be that a number of people do not have the same definitions of the words punishment and positive. It's a common problem. Which is why in canine psychology they came up with the terms above.
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Location: London
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 220
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06-10-2009, 04:30 PM
Negative punishment isn't such a bad thing to use, unlike positive.
Fi - Do you know many/any positive trainers who WOULD positive punishment, because I would have thought that goes against what they call themselves?
