Too much exercise and bad recall linked? (long)

Background
Last night I started at a training class with Max again. We've not been to a formal class since November (when he gained his KC Good Citizen Bronze Award) as Max had kennel cough and then had his lump-removal operation.

Max was terribly giddy at the class, but I know from experience (the 40 weeks of classes pre-November) that he will calm down in a week or so. All the new dogs make him over-excited.

The set up is quite good and there are 3 trainer to approx 10 dogs. While the group is training, 1 trainer takes a dog and an owner for 10 mins to work on individual issues. I know most of the trainers there from Flyball and Good Citizen training. The lady I got for my 1 to 1 is the only trainer there I haven't met before.

Problem

My problems are specifically Max's recall and having my arm torn out of its socket when we walk.

When we are on our own on a walk or in the garden/paddock, Max's recall is 100%. He walks to heel the majority of the time (or on a slack lead slightly in front of me, which is fine).

However, if we see another dog, he will pull and strain on his lead. If he is off lead, he will totally ignore me and go into a "collie crouch" and then leg it after the other dog. There's no malice in it, he just wants to play.

I often walk him early morning and after tea, so there are not loads of people around. There are 3 or so dogs in the area that I don't mind him being off lead around (and their owners don't mind either). If we see any other dogs that I don't know, I recall him and put him on his lead (which works if he hasn't seen the other dog).

Trainers Response

She wanted to know how much exercise he gets.
Max gets a 2 mile walk in a morning. This is about 50/50 on and off lead - on the beach and a foot path and on the pavement.

He then gets a 3 or so mile walk after tea, again, 50/50 split. We certainly don't rush the walks. It takes us about 40-50mins to do the 2 miles in a morning!

When we are in the house, he has the run of our large garden and paddock and we play catch etc with him (or he plays on his own)

The trainer said this was too much exercise. (Max is 13mths old). She said I was exacerbating the problem by keeping him "too fit".

I should only take him out for an hour a day maximum and play more in the garden with him.

I should never, ever let him off lead outside of the garden if I don't have 100% recall. Until I have that recall I should have him on lead all the time, and not let him run around on the beach.

My issues

I was gobsmacked! He is a Boxer, they have so much energy! A walk on lead does absolutely nothing to tire him out. We learnt this during the winter months and when he was recovering.

He was bouncing off the walls and at his most destructive when he didn't get his "free runs", even though we did hours of garden play and on-lead walking.

I only let him off lead on the beach when I know that it is clear. It's a lovely flat beach, which means I can see for a couple of miles each way, and up onto the footpath that runs beside it for any dogs etc. I know that I should have 100% recall (which he does when we're in the garden/alone etc) before I let him off the lead; but for me its a choice of letting him expend some energy, or having a destructive and very naughty dog around.

If I did as she said, I'm fairly sure he'd go back to chewing (the kitchen, the greenhouse, anything he can find) and counter surfing and generally being naughty. I found that doing the 5 miles a day really helps, as he isn't as giddy all the time.

Burning Question

Should I listen to the trainer and stop the exercise and keep him on lead? I don't think I can deal with the destruction we had last time.

I realise she probably has years more experience than I do (she owns and sometimes breeds cocker spaniels apparantly), but surely I know my own dog enough to know how he behaves?

Help please!!

*Apologies for the huge post, but I'm very worried that I've done Max more harm than good!*

Hiya,

Firstly Max sounds like a typical 13m old to me in being a bit selective in his hearing and possibly at the 'teenage' ignore everything I have learnt.

Secondly - I can't see the link between too much exercise being equal to bad recall. I'm afraid a bad recall is just down to training - don't take that as a criticism - my youngest gordon is also a selective recaller. This time of year I think its particulary hard due to the lovely new smells around!!

Regarding keeping him on a lead - well she is not far off but not lead exercise more keeping him on a long line perhaps when you might meet other dogs you can 'catch' him before he escapes!

My advice to you is that you need to try and be MORE exciting than the other dogs.

To do this I would suggest you use the long line and try and do some games/training with him - just to keep his focus on you - this is not easy - my English on a walk did not have any interest in toys or food on a walk - the smell and birds are far more interesting than boring old mum!!

It seems he gets the opportunity to free run in your garden and when you 'don't meet others?'

You may want to change his recall command because he probably has learnt to ignore this - what do you use at the moment - would it be practical to change?

I would then go back to basics - and you are right that you need 100% recall at home before you can expect 100% out of walks - trouble is once they have learnt to ignore then they will do it again.

I hope some of the above is of help - I'm sure others can help much more than me - I don't have perfect recalls by no means - but they are OK for me!

Also, as an after thought - have you tried changing to a whistle - one of mine responds much better to the whistle?

Good luck honey!

my own personal opinion (having always owned very big dogs) is that they need plenty of room to bounce around in when they are young. Actually keeping them on the lead and not letting them run round makes them less willing to obey you. I have always let my 2 run free whenever I can, and I find they are now beginning to listen to me even when off lead and will come back to me. They too go into the 'crouch' position when they see another dog (strange or not) it is just play for them.
I can't actually see any benefit in keeping a young active dog on lead all the time unless you are in a situation where it would be a danger.
I have always kept to the 5 minutes per month of age rule, and when out if they wanted to stop and have a lie down we did just that, so they never over did it.
An empty beach sounds like heaven to me, you are very lucky.
I think if you took an under exercised energetic young dog to training you would be asking for trouble. He would be far too over excited and over stimulated to listen to you.
Maybe the trainer is not used to having big dogs that need the same amount of bounce time?

I don't have 100% recall off lead outside, I think keeping them on the lead only interferes with socialising, my 2 love to run up to other dogs to say hello, I think this helps with them not to feel defensive on lead with other dogs, once they're happy they've said hello they come back to me, is that not what doggie walks are about, obviously if I spot some one with a dog on lead I will respect that and either put the boys on or go in another direction, I too need to give the boys at least 2 good walks a day, if I don't they are naughty so I know what you mean, the only thing I can think that the trainer means, kinda ties in to when I had Suki, early on when she was young and used to get off lead the more she walked the more crazy dog like she used to get, almost looked frenzied looking for sommit to get up to but it does'nt sound like Max is doing that. You sound like your doing things right with him, on and off the lead is good on a walk, recalling him while your walking is good, hes young yet so he'll still be puppyish out and about, I think in time he will settle and be happy to come back to you. I would'nt be too hard on him he sounds great.

Ollie can only have 45 mins at the moment a day and I am now taking him on the field more as it is dry I take him on a long line and let him meet other dogs he hasn't met before while on lead or small dogs as he is so big and I can understand peoples apprehension of him hurting them unintentionally.If we meet dogs we know he is allowed off for a run or if no-one else is about. His hearing is very selective if he smells something and I find sometimes I am right at the other end of the field he eventually returns and gets praised.I have started using home made liver cake and he is begininning to pay more attention but they are so young and like small Children like to explore.I think if they aren't allowed to have some freedomn how will they learn what is expected when they are older bit like your Children growing up really,I have also started using this way instead of come all the time.It seems to work.
Sounds to me like you are doing things right and I know someone who had a boxer and now sits one and she says they have so much energy so if you and Max are happy I would keep up what you are doing.

Pretty much what is said above.
With all due respect all breeds are different. This woman may have no experience of boxers and their exuberance. I've also found exercise before training lets the dogs get the excitement out of them and they tend to focus more on the training sessions.
I remember someone asking a question at our training. "When do boxers calm down?" The answer "about five seconds before they pop their clogs".
I agree with what Rachel Setters has said. Mix up your walks into training which will work your dogs mind and make you the most interesting thing about and fun to be with.
If you out for an hour say down the beach. Do four five minutes sessions on recall, down stay, sit/wait, then follow it up with something really fun, favourite toy, wrestling on the floor with him.
It's so common and you here it all the time at training. The dog always does this and that in the garden then they don't at training. Dogs quickly become use to their surroundings. Now if they've got a different location. Throw in some other dogs, you have to compete with that in a balanced way. Remember to just take your training back a couple of steps if it's going wrong. If recall is going wrong off lead then pop back on a long lead or even a six foot lead and do the basics again, building up.
Stick at it. You have an exuberant breed and it may take a little longer but you'll get there.

Will post a slightly longer reply this afternoon once I've digested ideas and probably come up with more questions...

But...

Just so you know, Max had been on his 3 mile walk before training last night

That's how giddy/energetic he is!

I know that once he has processed all the smells etc in a week or so, he'll be fine!

I did suspect that the trainer has not had much experience of larger, more energetic breeds.

Hi Rachel, thanks for the suggestions! No offence taken at the training bit above! The smells and sights of spring seem to send him mental

We do lots of play/training on our walks anyway. We do sits, downs, down-stays, fetching the ball back etc. It's when another dog can be seen that the food/toy/me is totally forgotten.

His recall at home/garden is 100%. I can shout him from anywhere on our land and he'll come pelting up the garden to me and sit in font of me, which is why it's frustrating when I know he can do it, but won't!

We use the word "come", e.g. "Come, Max" or "Max, come"; he'll also respond to me turning on my heel and shouting "Bye, bye"

I had thought of a whistle, but hadn't got one. Maybe I ought to try one? It would be better than me shouting myself hoarse and running after him!

Before training we do take him on his usual 3 mile walk. It's just that he's actually that bouncy/manic that it doesn't make much difference!

I think we'll have to get the lunge line out again, which is a pain as it's such a bundle to have to carry around... oh well! Back to puppy training methods again!

I found that Murphy's training went completley out his head at about 12 months old and he was all over the place at training -the bloke I went to was used to German shepards and kept comparing Murphy ( dobe) to his shepards -he told me very similar things to what you've been told -no off lead till you have total recall ( how do you know you've got it till they're off lead )
In hindsight this bloke did more damage than good -some which we cannot repair
you know what sits right for you and your dog and it doesn't sound like this does -follow your instincts

The trainer has cocker spaniels, and I'm sure they have their own foibles and training quirks (that I know nothing about!).

I'm not sure she understands how destructive a Boxer can be, or maybe how bouncy/energetic they are.

That's the thing with the recall. In the garden/our field he is 100%, as he is when there are no other dogs around!

He has passed his good citizen award, so I know he can do it!