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Cassius
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02-07-2009, 05:30 PM

Ellie attacked Zane

Hi All,

I'll start at the beginning.

I had Zane at 6 weeks old in February 2008.

I had Ellie at 5 weeks ld un June 2008.

I had Murphy at 12 months old in September 2008 ut he had to go back to rescue for attacking Zane in December 2008.

I had Yiannis at 3 months old in February 2009.

I had Seto at 10 years old in June 2009.

usually, as with any household that has dogs and/or kids, there are squabble over toys 4tc. I generally ignore these and allow the dogs to sort these out for themselves.

Last night, even though I couldn't see any toys nearby, Ellie growled at Zane in such a way that I thought he was trying to take something off her. Usually she'll growl until he takes the object away then go and get somethign elset o play with.

Last night, though, there were no toys. She growled then within a split second she'd launched into a full blown attack. She wouldn't let him go. There was no gapf or me to get in between them and God knows I tried. Themost I culd do was put myself between the dogs and Oscar so he wouldn't get hurt.

I know they'd never deliberately hurt him but neither of them were lookng where they were going or what direction they were moving in.

The most I could do when they moved away from Oscar was grab both of them whislt still fighting and pu tthem outside in the back garden. Afterwards, Zane looked at meso pitifully I didn't know what to do. I couldn't help him. I couldn't do anything. Had I tried to pull her off him I'd have done a lot more damage.

Ellei got away with a small hole on the top of her snout. Zane has puncture wounds ll over the left side of his face and down his legs. She went for his legs first to bring him down.

Both dogs allwoed me to bathe them with warm salt water and they have antibioic. Zane has painkillers for the swelling.

But what can I do to prevent anything like this happeneing again? I don';t wnt any of my dogs hurt? But I don't know what set it off. I don't think for one second that Oscar or myself am at risk. I will not consider PTS (as advised by my stupid older brother) or rehoming as it doesn't seem necessary at this point.

Could it be a one off? Do you think the heat affect them yesterday? I'd appreciate any ideas to help the dogs.

Laura xx
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magpye
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02-07-2009, 05:52 PM
I know the type of attack.. When Kismet goes.. its the same.. total red mist and no holds barred. So far with Kismet it has always been triggered by food and we have resolved it for now anyway, by just removing all food and feeding separately.

Take all toys away and anything else that may have triggered the jealousy, chill them out and go back to basics. Could have been the heat, could have been hormonal. But whatever it was, they need to go back to rules and you need to take charge of playtimes. They cant just rough and tumble and sort things out themselves, you are going to need to step in and be the one who solves all disputes. As soon as there's a rumble or growl, you step in and put a stop to it.

Are they speyed/neutered? If not then spaying Ellie may calm her a bit, or at least stop the rollercoaster that are seasons. Kismet seems to be slowly chilling out now she's been speyed.

In the event they do this again, you need a way to break them up. Water can work, or a hiss of a fire extinguisher may work. You only need to break them up for a moment, just enough time to remove the aggressor. calm them, offer them a distraction, go through some basic training... then bring them back in, watching for stiffness or growling.. If there looks like there will be another escalation, then back out again and more training...

Good luck... I don't know how old your kids are, but make sure if possible that they know what to do as well. That they must stay well out of the way and if possible leave the room. They must never try to intervene. (Not that I think they would, but it's one of those things that is better said)
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Lionhound
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02-07-2009, 05:55 PM
No advise to give but wanted to post support. (((hugs))) x
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Helena54
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02-07-2009, 06:00 PM
I was once told by an old irishman that when dogs go for the legs, they mean business, they're in for the kill That was when Georgie once flipped a dog over and pinned him down coz he had tried to mount him, and that's when this irish owner told me about the legs!

I have no answer for you I'm afraid, I've been lucky, I've never had fighting with any of my previous dogs and don't expect anything with the current two either, even though I always had 2 bitches together usually which wasn't supposed to be a good scenario. What can you do though? It's a difficult one, but I suspect the heat might have had something to do with it, coz it made me like that this morning. Let's hope that's all it was and they'll be best of pals again forever more.
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ClaireandDaisy
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02-07-2009, 06:06 PM
Spaying a bitch can increase aggression (in an already feisty bitch that is) - the percentage of testosterone rises.
Have the dogs got somewhere they can chill out - away from the others? Not as punishment, just as a time out thing?
I agree with all the putting stuff away that can be a trigger.
You might want to think about more training for the girl who started it so she has more to do.
I think if this happened with mine I`d look at instituting more training in the house. It helps the dog relax if they don`t have to make the rules. (does that make sense?)
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Wysiwyg
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03-07-2009, 06:31 AM
Sorrry to read about this happening...

Originally Posted by Stumpywop View Post
...usually, as with any household that has dogs and/or kids, there are squabble over toys 4tc. I generally ignore these and allow the dogs to sort these out for themselves.
Between any particular dogs?
How long do they go on for? ie a quick snap or more?
How many seconds might it last for?

Last night, though, there were no toys. She growled then within a split second she'd launched into a full blown attack.
How big is the area this happened in?
Where were all the dogs in relation to you (assuming you were there when it started?)
Did any other dogs join in?
What were you doing?
What were the dogs doing immediately before the attack on Zane?
Has she showed aggro towards him in particular before?


She wouldn't let him go....
The most I could do when they moved away from Oscar was grab both of them whislt still fighting and pu tthem outside in the back garden. Afterwards, Zane looked at meso pitifully I didn't know what to do. I couldn't help him. I couldn't do anything. Had I tried to pull her off him I'd have done a lot more damage.
Horrible situation

Both dogs allwoed me to bathe them with warm salt water and they have antibioic. Zane has painkillers for the swelling.
Are they around each other again now, or are you keeping them separated for the moment?

But what can I do to prevent anything like this happeneing again? I don';t wnt any of my dogs hurt? But I don't know what set it off.
This is a major problem as of course it could happen again which would be awful
Hence my questions above, because sometimes knowing the answers can give small clues.

I don't think for one second that Oscar or myself am at risk. I will not consider PTS (as advised by my stupid older brother) or rehoming as it doesn't seem necessary at this point.
Certainly not PTS - there is NO reason for this! and probably not rehoming just until you know what is going on.

Could it be a one off? Do you think the heat affect them yesterday? I'd appreciate any ideas to help the dogs.

Laura xx
One off? - hmm, I'd not bank on it. Yes it could be the heat, it does effect dogs, but don't rely on that "diagnosis" as it could give a false sense of security in my view....

I'd suggest:

Taking Ellie and maybe Zane to the vet for a thorough check up. Zane because sometimes dogs can react to other dogs if they are poorly (and it may not always be found except via, say, a blood test. Not saying this is the case but it helps to ensure the attacked dog is perfectly healthy too). Ellie may have some problem which isn't detectable on the surface.

A lot depends on the interactions between her and Zane, and her and other dogs, too. My view is that it's OK for dogs to have very tiny spats occasionally, lasting for a few seconds (and no more) but if it happens regularly it is necessary for the owner to step in and take charge of such situations and organise matters so it can't happen, hopefully. With some dogs the allowance for "aggressive" behaviour can escalate if they deem it's OK to be like that in the home, and physiologically you can get adrenalin levels causing problems.

If it's out of character for her, I'd think it might be something medical, perhaps. If an adult dog alters its behaviour with no known reason, then often it is due to a medical reason.

I hope that is of some help.

If there is no result from the vet, I'd suggest the next step would be a reputable behaviourist (APBC or similar) because they may be able to unravel any problem (or at least they can assess and give their views if its impossible to give any behavioural modification).

In the meantime I'd not "trust" Ellie at all just in case, either with Zane or another dog in the family.

The one thing I'd not do is leave it and hope it won't happen again - it may not, but OTOH if it did it could be worse and Zane may come out of it badly, plus it's not good to let Ellie "practice" such behaviour.

I'm so sorry this happened as it must be really upsetting.
I hope you get to the bottom of it.

Wys
xx
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Berger
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03-07-2009, 08:26 AM
Brilliant post Wys as always. I'm so sorry this has happened. Hopefully you can get it sorted. Big hugs to you xxx
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Cassius
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03-07-2009, 09:57 AM
Hi,

Thanks everyone for your imput.

Zane was neutered last year in July. Ellie was spayed at the end of April this year. Yiannis was neutered at the beginning of June this year. Seto is entire.

Seto was asleep under the computer table and Yiannis was aslepp behind the sofa (the one he hasn't eaten!) whn the attack happened. They were no where near Zane and Ellie.

The attack happened in the living room. Zane and Ellie were kind of in the middle (ish) when it happened and not close to me, Oscar or the other dogs. I was helping oscar choose a film to watch from the bookcase near the alcove.

Oscar knows to stay away form the dogs when they squabble, which hardly ever happens really but the poin tis, it does occasionally and he knows to either go out of the living room (or whatever room he's in if with the dogs) and eitehr into his playroom or upstairs - the dogs aren't allowed upstairs or in his playroom.
He's NEVER left alone with the dogs - EVER. So I'm always there should anything happen. If I go to the bathroom either the dogs go into the kitchen or outside if Oscar is in the living room or Oscar has to come upstairs with me and play in his bedroom for a couple of minutes.

When it happened I told Oscar to stand on the wooden shelf/bench part fothe fireplace that is inbuilt into the alcove and get as far into the corner as possible. I put 2 of the sofas covers in front of him so shoudl the dogs get near and snap (not at him directly because I know they wouldn't) they'd only snap the covers, not Oscar.
I would've like to have got him out of the room but I would have had to have got him past Zane and Ellie first and I didn't want him that close whilst they were fighting. So I thought it better for him to stay where he was. Thius way, they couldn't have got to him without going through me first.

The squabbles with toys happens rarely now. It happens when one of the dogs has something that another decides he/she wants. It usually lasts no more than a few seconds and usually now the dog who had the toy int he first place keeps it. Tehy've all learned that if they take a toy by force, it's taken off them and given back to the dog that had it in the first place. I usedf to have more problems when they had ore toys so I took abotu 2 thirds of the toys away. Now they do have some but only a few and the squables have reducewd by about 99%.

None of the dogs have ever shown any aggression, although Ellie did try to have a go at Murphy when he attacked Zane back in December. I stopped her and pulled her away and dealt with Murphy and Zane once I could get to them (zane had backed himself into the corner of the "den" they have. In a way it was nice to see that she'd defend Zane but no, she's never been aggressive.

They're all very sociable dogs with other dogs and people. Zane and Ellie have grown up together and the bond they have is (or was) unbreakable (or so I thought).
After the attack Zane allowed Ellie to lick his face and legs where he was bleeding. She licked him over and over and each time she aprocahed him since then it's been with her head down - almost as though she's waiting for something to happen.

I knwo we shouldn't humanise dogs' behaviour and I try very hard not to most of the time, but it's almost as though since then Ellie has been trying to make it up to Zane.

I kept a very close eye on them all last night. Seto and Yiannis spent the evening asleep, not taking a blind bit of notice of anyone.

Zane and Ellie, after a little bit of individual training tht I do each evening with them anyway, slept next to each other on the kitchen floor.

I haven't separated them because I thought it could cause more problems afterwards. I certainly wouldn't consider PTS as I don't feel there's a need. I would only consider rehoming if it happened again and I couldn't fix the problem - although I wouldn't rehome until I knew what the poblem was becuse I wouldn't want to put someone else in such a position. I've seen dogs fight before and have separated them. But most people haven't and it can be very frightening.

I think there is a definite reason for the attack, but I just can't see it. I've booked them into see the vet later today (separately of course).
I think that maybe there's a reason that I don't know yet adn maybe the heat and/or humiodity just made things worse. I don't think it was just because fo the heat that this happened. After all, it's been hot before and there haven't been any attacks. With the heat, my main problem is that I live in a metal house - so trying to keep it cool inside is almost impossible.

At the moment, I'm allowing the dogs to interact at home whilst I;m there. I'm always inbetween Ellie and the opther dogs. If I have to go out I'm ither taking her with me or taking her to my Mom's until I get back. I won't leave her alone with the boys.

It's just so out of character for her and that scares me more than the possibility of another attack. It means, as already stated, that it could be a medical problem and I don't want my dogs to be ill.It's really upsetting because I can't see a reason for it. If it was defninitely over toys, or food, or something I could see then I could deal with it. not knowing is making it really hard.
What makes it scary for me is the fact that she went for Zane's legs first. I know she had every intention of seriously hurting him but she's just not that sort of dog. People I've told so far who know my dogs don't believe me to begin with because Ellie has always been a very gently and loving dog - even when she kisses you with the poer of a bulldozer!

She already has lots of training, as do the GSDs but I'll increase it a bit. Recently becuse it's so hot they've not had their couple of hours in the middle of the dy in the park so I'll be increasing the exercise againnow it's cooled down - although a couple of days of not playing int he park shouldn't have made this happen I don't think.

I certtainly won't leave it and hope for the best. I am hoping it won't happen again but at the moment, Ellie doesn't have the opportunity of hurting Zane or anyone else at the moment. The only perosn she can get at if she wanted to do damage is me. Not the dogs and certainly not Oscar (although I know she wouldn't).

At the moment the antibiotics and painkillers (particuarly for Zane) seem to be knocking the dogs about and they're spending much fo their time asleep. So it's easy to deal with them at the moment. When they're both feeling better and jumping about like lunatics then I'll have my work cut out for me. Hopefully by then I'll have an answer/reason.

Thanx for all the advice and support. I'll post back when I've heard what the vet has to say. I just hope it's something simple I can deal with. It would be heartbreaking for all of us if Ellie had to be rehomed - particularly Oscar as she's his dog really. Although if it came to it I'd ask family and friends first f they could take her so ti wouldnt' be as though we weren't ever going to see her again. Still - that's speculating on something that may not happen yet.

Laura xx
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Sarah27
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03-07-2009, 03:00 PM
Just wanted to add my support. I've had fights with Bryan and foster dogs, but never anything too serious touch wood.

I felt so guilty the two times it has happened (one dog had to go to another foster home as I felt I couldn't trust her).

I hope you are all ok x
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Cassius
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05-07-2009, 10:53 AM
Hi,

Thank youand yes, we are all fine now.

Everythign seems to have clamed down and ont he face of it things seem to be back to normal. But I can't help feeling this is just th calm before the storm.

Ellie is constantly trying to make friends with Zane who is almost ignoring her but who can blame him?! He proabbly thinks she'll hurt him again.

Ellie seems to be back to her usul puppy self with kisses for everyone, the dogs included. but I must dmit I don't trust her with the dogs at all. She seems more at ease than she was when it comes to telling Yiannis off - althogh she doens't do it without reason;. Yiannis deserves to be told off and Ellie usually dishes out the discipline.

I'm afraid for the other dogs - well Zane and Yiannis. For some reaosn I'm not at all worried abotu Seto being around Ellie. Maybe because he's an old man in doggy terms.

I'm afraid of what may happen and I'm afraid of possibly having to rehome Ellie. The biggest problem is that there was nothign to suggest she was going to attack. So I may not get to her quickly enough should it happen again.
Since then I've been walking each dog separately but with Ellie. SO basically she's getitgn worn out physically and ha the opportunity to be friends again with the other dogs as I'm sure they all feel something is not right.
When I walk them together I have one dog on each side of me so they can't get to each other, even if they wanted to. It's the ONLY tiem I can guarantee there won't be any sort of physcal contact between the dogs.

At the moment I'm taking one day at a time. All the dogs are getting extra walks not the eather has cooled a little and extras training on the evening (1 to 1) as well as the formal training on Tuesdays and Agility on Wednesdays.

They're all being friendly to each other (as usual I sppose) but I can't help worrying that they will pick up on how I feel. I'm not usually phased by dogs squbbling or fighting properly dn can usually deal with it with the worst problems beign the vet's bill! But this scared me. I was worried for Zane's life (althout that may sound a bit dramatic) and I know llie meant to do a lot of harm at the time, even though she was clearly sorry afterwards. This time it really phased me and that in itself is worrying.

Still, time is a great healer and if things continue as they have been we will all get back to normal before too long.

Laura xx
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