Correction Lou all of these statements are incorrectly quoted as being made by me, I didn't make any of them.
I think you will find they were made by Lucky Star

Originally Posted by uncllou

My deepest apologies to both of you. I'm more tired than I thought. I'll be more careful, I promise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minihaha
My education is in science

Me too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Please provide details of studies which you have carried out to support all your claims with respect to the use of e-collars on dogs. Just quoting your experience of training dogs in the past isn't scientific enough.

What studies of what claims are you looking for? I haven't said anything that needs scientific support. It's always been your side of this discussion that's cited so-called scientific studies to support your side of the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Your studies will no doubt include dog physiological data to show that the dogs are unharmed in terms of Metabolic, Biochemical, cardiovascular and general health.

You have this backwards. One can't prove a negative, that something doesn't happen. The argument against this is "next time it might." Rather the burden lies with those folks who claim that dogs ARE harmed by Ecollars. Please show us those studies. When you do I'll point out how and where their flaws are so deep as to make them worthless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Can I also see peer-reviewed scientific papers reporting the results and conclusions of your studies?

I haven't cited any studies. What are you talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Am I to conclude then that neither you nor Lou have actually carried out any proper studies? If not then I suggest it is foolish to continue to disparage other people's comments as being non-scientific.

I'm sorry but this is soooooo wrong. I don't have to have ever written a single paper to be able to find fault with a so-called scientific study done by someone else.

Could you please amend your post Lou ..thank you .

In other words then - you cannot scientifically back up any of your claims so there's not much point in continuing to quote 'science' as your argument.
That's all I needed to know - many thanks.

Gosh.

Lou, again very eloquent and persuasive.

I'm probably giong to leave this thread now as we are moving nowhere with it, but as a quick, final note, you mentioned that some people still let their dogs off leash when they have a high chase instinct around cars or livestock and that you would therefore advocate the use of an ecollar on those dogs...what would I do???? I would remove the dogs from those people given half a chance as they are being irresponsible. Why should the dog have to suffer with an ecollar to ensure it doesn't kill or get killed, when there's a much simpler, cheaper option...a lead. Simple.

As for training dogs to leave food well alone, I think you should speak to the many PET dog owners around the world who do that with their dogs as they HAVE to as there is a lot of poison down in their areas ( I believe parts of Australia fall into that category).
As for people threatening to kill dogs with poison...simple answer...DON'T let the dog in the yard unsupervised or off leash. No ecollar necessary.
As I said before I see no need for ecollars, no need at all. Nothing will change my opinion on that. Ever.
Trust me when I say you are doing police dog trainers in this country no favours by posting about their use of ecollars.
Thanks Lou for a very well argued debate, but, we will never agree.

Wyziwig
Not sure what an APDT originator is,

Clob
He started APDT, name of fish, fishton or something, he was called into a GSD rescue, got on his hands and knees and starting barking it its face, should come as no surpise that the dog went to bite him, he told the lady to PTS the dog - she refused and her and the dog lived happily for the rest of its days.

I have saw this barking a strange dogs face nonsense of people hireing people calling themselves behaviourists several times on the UK forums, though, not so much over this past couple of years, it seemed more common around 2002 when I first saw these sites, wonder how many dogs died as result of those 'visits'.

Below is a quoted sample:

"I was told by a very well respected member of APDT association to have my previous dog put to sleep as his aggressive behaviour was incurable. And like a fool I went and did it!!!!!!! I knew very little about training dogs, or their behaviour, and now that I do I KNOW he was certainly not beyond help."

The link you gave comes up with this:
Unfortunately we are unable to find the page or item that you are looking for.Visit the index page for this site.

These are the 'Positive trainers' for you.

Lillibet
i think diffrent things work 4 diffrent dog's and people and as long as you and your dog are happy and no1 is getting hurt then it is ok.

Clob
That was allways the case Lillibet, my life in succesfull dog training goes back to when I was aroun9/10 with my own first personal dog. By the time I was 12 I was earning all my pocket money for summer hols + what I was given.

These were farmbred very rough hard working dogs by the way not these specialy bred for obedience and agility and make no mistake if some so called pet dog trainer tries to convince you that they sit at home by the fire 'worried and concerned' about some lad or farmer, out on cold windswept moor in winter, training his dog and useing an e-collar, DONT believe 'em, they are worried about how e-collars will affect their income.

On my 13th birthday I bought my first double barrel shotgun, my parents had promised me 2 boxes of cartridges if I saved enough for the gun. It all came from collecting stray sheep from the Pennines and droveing them back to their brand farms, many kids did the same.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/shots49/16.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/shots49/1b.jpg

The chances of me EVER posting on any of these forums did not exist untill I saw all, what has now been proven to be bunkum, the nonsense written by commercial co-operative members, mainly APDT & APBC, written on these forums about other trainers and especialy e-collars.

NO pro trainer who knows what they are doing EVER made anything more than the occasional private personal comment about another.

The reason these people did want e-collars banned and started shouting the odds was because e-collars (I mean the real e-collar, not what these people say is the e-collar) would show the failings of this commercial dog training which is now suggesting a 2 year recall - good grief, the dogs life is almost a 1/4 over by then and it cannot come of the lead safely, its almost adult and it could have put the family and owner through merry hells bells by then, BUT, they keep clawing in the training fees for that period.

Once a dog fully understands what "Come" means you can get a reliable recall with distractions from almost any distance, one lesson is enough and maybe one or two telephone support after the lesson, I could do it by phone as could almost any trainer, sorry, I mean non alligned, multi method, independant trainer.

So getting back to your comment above, no one ever made more than an occasional private comment about others training methods, unfortunatly it went to the heads of those who were greedy, they started trouble - well we finished it.

clob
your just going round in circles when will you understand that regardless of how you try and sell the e collar as a training aid to others alot of people don't like them or the method in which it trains a dog.
your a great believer in them we aren't its as simple as that, i hope 1 day they are banned just because you don't agree doesn't make you right!

Leo
your just going round in circles when will you understand that regardless of how you try and sell the e collar as a training aid to others alot of people don't like them or the method in which it trains a dog.
your a great believer in them we aren't its as simple as that, i hope 1 day they are banned just because you don't agree doesn't make you right!

Clob.
Yea, its not me you need to convince, even looking at this forum with 1000’s of members all you have is about 7 or 8 people shouting this and that about e-collars.

There is currently a growing public concern about animal rights extremists in the UK attempting to hold up technological progress and the benefits it brings, Oxford is very active this past few months and growing fast, minorities do not rule or speak for majorities, the KC is now being openly stated as having extreme veiws, check link at bottom as well.

House of Lords – May 23 2006.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
I wish to add amendment 14 to the Animal Welfare Bill to ban e-collars

Lord Pearson of Rannoch said
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electric collar has proved to be such a boon.
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You do not just loose off a strong charge; you turn up the current as slowly as you can until you see the desired effect.
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Kcs wish to ban electric dog collars is simply too extreme.

Lord Inglewood:
If we had not used the electric collar, my dog Prospero would be dead—just like one of his predecessors, Samson.
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If it is a choice between the humane application of a small electric shock or killing the dog, there does not seem to be much argument about which is in the best interests of the dog
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On such devices, there is a dial that determines the strength of the shock.
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If they are completely banned, you are throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater and you are probably condemning quite a lot of dogs to a premature death.

Lord Lucas:
I have never used an electric shock collar,
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I was sent to KC's approved and best trainer in west London. We went through an extensive period, a couple of months, of reward-based training. We appeared at Crufts, we did not get the reward and the dog has not behaved any better since
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he went through the tup method of aversion to sheep—which has been successful.
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The idea that behaviour training will deal with the type of misbehaviour that my former noble friend, but my current friend, Lord Pearson of Rannoch calls a dog with a "strong character", or that training is available at a reasonable cost to most citizens, is unrealistic. A properly used electric training collar achieves something that cannot be done reasonably in other ways
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Although it can be misused, so can many other things. I grew up in a family that believed in beating dogs
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to pretend that you can train a strong-willed dog without that sort of application of force is just lulu.

Earl Peel:
It is difficult for me to accept
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electric collars that are used properly can enhance the life of the dog, because it becomes less of a problem, more acceptable to its owner and a happier relationship evolves as a result.
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having seen these mechanisms in use, I am convinced that they are well within the reasonable standard of acceptable animal welfare.
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Last weekend, I visited a well known and respected gun dog trainer who lives near my home. He possesses a particularly good young cocker spaniel, but the drawback was its incessant barking at night. It
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disturbed everyone, including the trainer, and the neighbours were not too appreciative of that. He told me that he had resorted to using an electric collar, which had done the trick. I saw the dog, which was full of the joys of spring and clearly adored his master. In no way could he be described as cowed. For me that was a clear example of how the judicious use of an electric collar can be very effective.
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But as the Minister, Ben Bradshaw, has stated, there is no evidence to substantiate claims that such mechanisms are harmful
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I think that they are a clear advantage to dog training, resulting in a happier relationship between the dog and its master.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
I am pleased to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
.
Oxford – Leading the way against minority animal extremists
http://www.oxfordgossip.co.uk/new/sh...?t=4663&page=1

I have enjoyed following this thread and actually feel that I have learnt something about E collars and their application, from a point of having an open mind, because I was not certain what they were or their uses, I am still open minded but at least with some insight into their correct application and the redeeming potential for some dogs, I can understand why Ecollars are used on LE/military dogs, their instant obdience is vital to both them and their handler, as is the speed with which they are trained for duty, my reservations are entirely based around the sort of people that would get this collar to shortcut other training methods and ruin their dog with their ignorance and misuse of an item that appears to have the potential to do both bad & good, depending on whose hands it is in!!
I too would like to see footage of the Ecollars in use, because like Leo I had Imagined a dog with all hairs on end!
Lou would you PM me your web address I would like to continue to read about this topic..

THANKS to all who have posted,

Rachel

Thanks Rachel.

I would also like to say thanks to Admin and mods of this forum, it is the only UK forum I have come accross, running a clean forum site and where open and rational debate can take place, giveing the benefit of accurate information getting through to all those who might be interested in it.

How many trials would I have to do to show that an Ecollar doesn't cause "cardiac fibrillation?" thousands? Hundreds of thousands? And the argument could always be that it might happen next time. Perhaps you missed my "kidney pie" analogy. If I said, "Kidney pie causes cancer." The burden is on me to prove it; not on anyone else to prove that it doesn't. Similarly when someone says that Ecollars cause "burns, cardiac fibrillation, psychological stress, changes in the heart and respiration rate or gastrointestinal disorders" the burden is on them to prove that they do.

That's very possible and if I've done that, I apologize to both of you. I'm getting a little tired and that's affecting my proofreading a bit.

Yep this is why I don't like high stim use for aggression problems. It's a classic example of fallout.

My deepest apologies to both of you. I'm more tired than I thought. I'll be more careful, I promise.

I've never used "science" as my argument. I've given you my experience. With your background in science I'm surprised that you ask for such information, knowing full well that one can't prove a negative. You're the one stating that the Ecollar causes all sorts of medical problems (unless I've mis quoted again) so you're the one who has the burden of proving them. Go back to my "kidney pie analogy."

Thanks very much.

Do the laws in the UK allow you to do that. I'd guess not.

You won't get an argument from me on this. But you know that some people won't listen to reason. They want their dogs to run free and that's all they see.

Not bad advice. Except when folks let their dogs out at night, just before bed, they won't see the ball of meat with the poison. It's only an inch around. Fido will find it easily with his nose and it will be gobbled down before the owner knows it.

I've had these discussions all over the Internet in the time I've been on. Many people have told me this. I'm now good friends with several of them who just happened to get the right (wrong) dog. Next thing I know they're on the phone asking for advice on the Ecollar.

No, thank you for the reasoned calm discussion. It's fine for us to disagree. I can't change everyone's mind. LOL.

Thank you so much for having the courage to write this publicly. When these conversations get wound up few people will do so. Usually I get several private emails asking for the info. People don't want to be perceived by others as having an interest for fear that the anti-ecollar folks will focus their attention on them.