Ok consider me a numpty but I am none the wiser what the hell we are talking about. I have successfully trained many dogs but sometimes jargon leaves me bewildered and I can't be the only one. well maybe I am but anyway is this what we are talking about?


It's really important that it be every day. Then it will not be painful. It will, however, teach the dog to tolerate mild discomfort, and to communicate to you when something hurts without turning around and biting you. It will also make you more aware of your dog's body language and help the two of you learn to move more smoothly as a team. You'll be able to guide your dog better with your hands in all other situations as you learn to do it in grooming.


The grooming is great for your dog's health, too, not only skin and coat, but all the other things you will notice before they become advanced problems. And the effects on a dog's obedience and cuddliness are just astonishing.
Another way to increase pack drive is to keep the dog with you. House dogs are part of the family, they develop many interactive behaviors with you, and they feel they belong. If your dog still needs crating at night, putting the crate in your bedroom instead of another room would increase pack drive.
If the dog does not require a crate, your bedroom floor is the perfect place for a dog bed. Pack drive is increased by a dog sleeping on the bed, too, but there are several circumstances in which that would not be a safe practice, and it is not necessary in order to have a great relationship with your dog.
The major way most people probably increase their dogs' pack drives is training. Harsh correction methods will increase defense drives, so you don't want that. If the dog perceives you as a fair leader who is generous with praise and other rewards, the dog not only increases in pack drives, but also increases its specific bond to you.
Petting also increases pack drive, so if you can use it as a reward for commands obeyed (praise is always the first reward, then petting if appropriate, or food or play), you're getting double-duty out of the training. Praise as a reward is so very important, for the dog to learn to love the sound of your voice, at the same time you practice and learn by experimenting just exactly how to use your voice to motivate your dog. Every dog is a little different. And good use of your voice requires regular practice.
When you take the dog away from the house with you, that seems to increase pack drive, too. You are the amazing leader who conducts these wonderful expeditions! Best if you don't take other dogs at the same time, since the bond to you is the most important one, not the bond to the other dogs. If you have multiple dogs, they need to each spend time alone with you regularly, in order to maintain a good bond with you and not be bonded just to each other.
Getting along well with another dog of opposite sex in the home probably increases pack drive, too, but if the choice of the other dog were not compatible with this dog, that would be detrimental. If other dogs are acquired too quickly, that would be detrimental, too, because as you can see from reading through this, the things that increase pack drive in your dog are things that involve you spending one-on-one time with the dog. Every new dog you add can challenge your ability to provide that for each of them.


if so then isn't this the way most of us train anyway?

awe trouble your not a numpty (if you are then I am too )
some methods work for some and some for others and the average numptys(me) capability to understand drive is limited so i stick to good old tried and tested, it is intresting but think it just the same theory that horse owners have been using for years

Thanks for that, not that I'm planning on changing the way I train my dogs, it works for me and for them and is mainly instinctive.
The thing I have found most confusing about this thread is the inability of those that advocate pack drive to actually explain what they do

The thing I have found most confusing about this thread is the inability of those that advocate pack drive to actually explain what they do

I'm glad that I'm not alone then. I must say that I expected far more from this thread. The longer it's gone on, the more confused I've become.

For the information that's been given, I might as well state that I now use "Scent Whistling" as my primary training technique, then wander off and leave everyone to figure out what I mean. All very perplexing.

Thankyou thankyou thankyou

First of all, when I tried to start to explain, I was pretty well attacked, the best one being that I called people with treats stupid. That remind me, that on this forum it is pretty clear, who says how dogs are trained. Somehow banging your head in the wall doesn't turn my drives on. And unfortunately, our videoprogram is gone because of electric break, which ruined our C-station so don't wait for the video for some time. Also someone sent a long and very good posting about creating the basics for pack drive. Very nice text, but it would have been correct to tell, who originally wrote it. It can be read in here:

http://k9deb.com/drives.htm

And it is written by Kathy Diamond Davies

Training without any more rewards than satisfactory by pack is already an old method and yes, same principles are used also by 'horse whisperers'. Someone said it is similar to Koehler method, but not that rough. Never seen any Koehlermethods, so I can't say if it is or not. What you need is a leash, soft leather collar, two free hands and a dog. Where you go, the dog goes. When you turn, the dog learns to check on you, where you are going, because otherwise it is producing a correction by itself. First one look in your eyes is worth praising. Dog learns that that kinda behaviour makes owner happy. Other kind of reactions don't cause no reaction by owner, but also owner doesn't stop and wait for the dog. With a puppy everything goes with small steps. Sitting in front of you is teached by stroking dog to sit between your legs and repeat the command with soft voice and warm tone. Sitting on owners side is the same thing. Everything happens on puppylevel, literally.

I could go on with this explanation, but then someone starts, does something wrong, comes here to explain and complain and who is there to blame? And I would like to know, how many still remembers when I wrote that no dog can be trained on forums. Neither can be no human trained to be dogtrainer. What Kathy Diamond Davies wrote is a good start. Someone asked that isn't that what we normally do? Yep. It is so true that we do it every single minute we spend with the dog and make dog numb to our voice and touch. Like I love chocolate. But if I have to eat chocolate as breakfast, lunch, dinner and supper, I really start to dream about dry ryebread.

Pack drive is misunderstood because people keep dogs as their babies. Dog is not a human being, and it will never be. Understanding that is essential.

And I still go back to the original question: How to train dog without treats? I answered and said that dogtraining is not possible on forums, because you have to see the reactions of dog to help the dogowner adjust her/his behaviour. After that I was stucked full of treats and sausages. Yep. I am full and go to chocolate now.

J