I would try parallel waking rather than walking past to begin with....

Interesting about the black labs. My old Cavvy who was a bit of a wimp to say the least - absolutely LOVED any big, black dog! And of course they usually were lab types. Whether it was because she could 'see them better' or what I've no idea but we used to comment on it all the time. They were the only dogs she wasn't very wary of.

Positive training isn't just using treats, not all dogs will work for food and if you have recently fed your dog few will work for them, they will work before food time.

As owners it is up to us to find out what our dogs will work for, I don't use treats often but do start a dog with treats first. The treats also matter, some dogs will work for their kibble, I have never had one that does, mine have all needed a higher reward.

Rewards can be anything, treats, praise a game, the reward has to be seen as a reward by the dog and not by us because often our idea of a reward is not the dog's.

One of the first questions I ask a trainer is how they reward a dog, if they only use treats I walk away, they don't understand positive training. With Dolly her reward is for me to throw a ball for her to fetch, Cyril loves a short game of tuggy.

One dog I fostered was a Maltese/JRT, he had the Maltese coat, other fosterers had pinned him down to groom him and just used a slicker which must have really hurt him. He only had to see a brush and he would react. I found out he loved hotdogs so I cut one in half then sliced it thinly, divided it into 2 and keeping a biggish piece back I let him stick his nose in my hand, while he was eating the hot dog I brushed one side of him, when finished he got the bigger piece as a reward then I done the same for the other side. The strange thing about this dog was he didn't normally want treats but would work for lots of praise. I would never have got a muzzle on him because of the abuse he had previously, he thought nothing of attacking humans. When he went to his new home he was happy to be brushed.


I don't pass on problems either so I can understand you with this, when I took on Gracie I was told she was good with other dogs, she tried to kill one of mine when she first arrived and it took me 3 months before she could be loose in the same room as my others even with a house lead on. Outside all she wanted to do was kill any dog she saw, she was worse than any dog I saw CM deal with. Even humans she would turn on, some of the scars on my hands are from her bites and she once went through one of my finger nails to the bone. She turned into a lovely dog, very gently and good with other dogs, I still miss her


I was a BHS AI, worked with horses straight out of the sales, many hadn't been handled before or had been ill treated. We had 3 days to turn these horses round ready to go down south to the sales. We had to clip and plait them, have them shod etc, not once did we use any methods on them we were not happy with. Yes I got kicked and bitten but that was fear, once horse's tail was a real mess, it hadn't been brushed for over a year because people were too frightened to brush it because he kicked. His tail was beautiful when he left us.


You don't need an E collar to teach a good recall, I have 4 dogs here now that all have good recalls, one of my past dogs was rehomed to us because they couldn't keep her in, she would take herself walkabout when she wanted and would disappear on a walk for several hours. She ignored you calling her back but she did get a good recall with consistent training and finding something she would work for, it wasn't treats.


I have never doubted your beliefs, as to Lou, I know him and am a big pain in his side when we meet on a forum, it was he who said he could teach Joe a good recall in 14 days, I done it in 10 with positive methods. It was the first time I had really used true positive methods and I have never stopped learning about it.


Like you I hate ignorance and I agree about CM, he isn't all bad and he has got people exercising their dogs now which is a really good thing.

There is one clip of him using an E collar on a dog that gets up to the window to bark and carry on, he has tried to hide the collar and the remote but the way the dog acts when he zaps him tells everyone just what is happening, he is really hurting the dog.

I admire Gnasher's honesty as well, the outcome of this thread is both sides have been given and how to use the collar, I did look into it before I decided against it, Lou is one of the people I learnt from. I had made my mind up before I saw someone use it the wrong way, that just showed me how dangerous it is in the wrong hands, the dog paid with his life.

It has been a good discussion and it is how we learn but discussing things . We should never stop learning, the day I do I won't be breathing, things are changing all the time and the more we understand the more we can help our dogs.

I did used to think the E collar would be fine as a last resort but the more I learn about positive training the more I have gone against that.

Parallel walking works for some dogs but not others, when I first got Gracie I tried that, it was a nightmare, all she wanted to do was kill the other dog.

But unless one tries one won't know, will one?

I should have elaborated - As a first sweep we will be on opposite sides of the road. The BL will definitely bark at Ben - I hope he does - but I would have a bet that Ben will turn and look, but he won't respond. He will drag his heels a bit and look over his shoulder, but I will have him on his harness which straps round my waist AND a rope slip lead and will tell him smartly to walk on. There is no way he will be able to drag me across the road, so there is no danger, and the owner of the BL is built like the proverbial and will be in no danger either.

we will work on this until we have perfection ... as it happens, all this action will be taking place right outside our village hostelry, so that will be our aim - to take Ben into the seating area outside the pub, and we sit there with our dogs and have a drink!! Sounds like an excellent plan!!

Probably where I go wrong I never look for perfection, I'm content they are happy and don't mind if they look elsewhere or want to say hello to others as it's there walk more than mine that is important. Even the dogs who would have killed given a chance we used to walk where they didn't have to be perfect and could enjoy their walk in a relaxed manner.

Not being perfect myself I don't look for it in my dogs behaviour, they are pretty perfect as they are though even when they are being naughty.

Correct - but as you rightly say, you need to find what works with YOUR dog - so many people have advised me to train with treats, which is why I mentioned it in particular, but we tried everything we and everybody else could suggest, and nothing worked. Which is why we turned to the e collar. That worked.

Regarding the grooming, I doubt very much we will EVER be able to thoroughly groom Ben's tail without muzzling him. We have a very limited amount of time - about a couple of minutes at the most - before he turns on you. He really does hate it - we think someone has deliberately stamped or trodden on his tail because he freaks out when you accidentally step on his tail - as frequently happens, because he has a horrible habit of hiding away in dark places with his tail sticking out!! We stop for a few minutes when this happens and then try again. It is a very long and drawn out process because his tail is very thick and bushy like a wolf's and it does because very tangled, as the whole of his coat does. We have got him now though to actually enjoy being groomed - it is just the tail we have a problem with.

Your girl sounds just like Ben! But with gentle firmness we have overcome all his issues of aggression - except with large black males! Bar one - the recall, hence the e collar.

I'm glad you know Lou - I thought I had the name right. I've never met him or spoken to him, but OH has had lengthy email conversations with him and may have actually spoken to him on the phone, not sure.

I don't really know what else to say, other than I am thoroughly enjoying this debate too!

Absolutely - me too. I would think that the Obedience people would disagree with me when I say Ben now has an excellent recall!! He comes immediately he is called, but he does not screech to a halt by your side and sit down - he gambols at top speed towards you - it's a wolf thing, it's called clipping - and the last minute he will veer off and immediately stop, turn and come to you so that you can put him on the lead, praise him, whatever you have called him for. With a northern breed like Ben, you would be extremely lucky to get perfection ... put a bit of wolf into the equation, forget it!! I do not want a perfectly behaved dog, I would hate to have a perfectly behaved dog, I like the challenge of my norty boys. To me, if I could just get this large black male thing sorted out, my boys would be perfect!

Parallel walking WILL work for Ben if it kills me! With a dog weighing 45 kilos you cannot have him lungeing at a dog that is walking past or overtaking. With most dogs Ben will parallel walk now - provided I am between him and the other dog. I tell him firmly to walk on, and leave - if he looks at the other dog - and stride swiftly and determinedly forward.