yes, I suppose if you remove humans and our rubbish, there would be no dogs. They would have remained as wolves.
Fascinating debate isn't it?

Yes, as you say, if we had never been involved, they would have remained wolves.

But I think the interesting point is that the articles I've read suggest that dogs do revert back to wolf like packs when humans are taken out of the equation. I also wasn't clear from what I've read so far as to over what time scale this is supposed to happen, e.g. whether there is a gradual transformation over several generations or much faster. That to me says that the pack theory isn't completely defunct, but that it is not necessarily the most appropriate approach to use on pet dogs.

Perhaps they need to do a programme like they do with humans - abandon a handful on a desert island (with perhaps some goats etc) and see what happens! (not that I'd volunteer any of my dogs for something like that!!)

Many different species of wild animals hang around human habitations because those that can adapt survive and if food is readily available in the form of our rubbish then many species will take advantage of that so I think to suggest removing man etc from the equation is a bit of a red herring.
Becky

It is the same for ALL DOGS. Feral, wild, domestic.

Whatever you are arguing, it is not based on facts. Read studies by Boitani, Fox, Price, Copinger et al

So Wild dogs do not form packs ?????

Very odd I was sure I had seen packs of African Wild Dogs(Painted Dogs)in Africa, when I was lucky enough to be allowed to view these dogs up close & almost personal in Namibia. I was told by my guide there that the packs had a submission based hierarchy, instead of a dominance based one.

But if you say these studies show that no dog lives in a pack then the Namibians along with all the other conservation groups must be wrong.

One would assume that people who live & breathe African Wild Dogs would know their facts & that the dogs only form groups & not packs ! I will be taking this up with them as obviously you know better than they do.

Well they were wrong about Wolves for an awful long time so it isn't that inconceivable that people are wrong on this aspect as well. My understanding of African Wild Dog Groups is that they are a family unit with a breeding pair and offspring.
Becky

Really do you mean that Wolves do not live in packs either ? just family groups ? Gosh I learn something new everyday You must pass this information on to David Mech, he hasn't just studied Wolves, but also other wild dogs, fancy him being so wrong & still thinking that Wolves & Wild dogs live in packs !

I am astounded. Can I ask where you studied the African Wild Dogs Becky Was it in Namibia, South Africa or Zimbabwe ? Who did you stay with when you did your observations ?

Wow two experts on Africa Wild Dogs on Dogsey we are honoured

I do hate all the pack/alpha/dominance debates.
The 'is my dog a wolf' thing that goes on.

My dog is not a wolf, just like I am not a caveman. The demands on me and my body since the caveman era have altered as they have with dogs/wolves.

My dog is a dog. If he were allowed to be wild his survival instincts would kick in yes...as would mine...but that would not turn him into a wolf...just a loose dog. If I ended up on a desert island...it would not turn me into a caveman, just a displaced person trying to survive. For both the idea of 'survival of the fittest' would have a stronger place in life...but it would not turn us into our ancestors, we could never be that as we have different life experiences, as did our parents and parents parents. I am not a caveman just as my mud wallowing dog is not a wolf and never, ever will be. Should his pups and pups pups end up wild too...they would still be just that...wild DOGS not wolves.I would be a wild child...so no change there then.

My dog does not see me as a member of his pack either. I am pretty convinced of that. He knows I am not a dog. He is not stupid. He is aware I am not a dog just as he is aware the hamster is not a dog...or the ducks...or pigeons...or squirrels or indeed foxes. Pack behaviour then for me and my dog means nothing. I do not have to be alpha and feed me first etc.


Just my take on it all....

Can I suggest you read the posts you quote properly instead of guessing at meaning...

What you are told does not represent reality. Really, next time try looking up the taxonomic name of this animal - it is no more a "dog" than a prairie dog.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prairie_dog