With respect, we don't know this.
Science has recently acknowledged that dogs can experience very human like emotions - perhaps one day we will "know" they love us.

I personally think they do, perhaps in their own way. And I think they have souls, not everyone will agree.

I have in fact, I didn't often see any kind of telling off from the dam to the pups (although some of the other dogs might tell them off) but I think the point here is that we as humans really cannot mimic what the dogs do, it is impossible for us. The subtlety, the finesse - we are clumsy compared to dogs and don't live with dogs as other dogs.

Wys
x

I have a family group here, and also a litter. Very interesting to watch. The dam rarely disciplines the pups, although when they want to feed and she doesn't want them to she does. Otherwise the younger female (1 tomorrow) seems to have taken over the nanny role. She takes no prisoners and one of the male pups who is very challenging shall we say seems to be constantly pinned by her, and also she takes his head in her mouth when he is being a real pain. My other older female seems to be leaving it to her daughter as well.
Interestingly the mother wouldn't let the older female near the pups even when they were 5 or 6 weeks old, the younger female (their cousin)was obviously being groomed for the nanny role in this case. Conversely when the other older female had her pups my other female helped deliver them and looked after them, although finally the mother of that litter got very fed up of the interference and there was a fight.
Strong hard discipline is handed out on a regular basis, at the same time they are constantly being loved and washed by all the older girls. My pups leave me having learnt good manners from a very early age, they are well loved by all of us and respond to that love, however they have also learnt respect within their 'pack' environment.

It's all part of learning theory.

both examples are typical of many who go out and buy e-collars, Firstlight. I'd go further and say that both are typical of how many trainers over your side of the pond use e-collars and probably here too (although we don't have too many e-collar trainers and certainly very, very few who would admit to it) use it. The examples show how easily incorrect associations are made.

You are trying to set up deliberate associations. Am I right in thinking that you use the nick button until the dog complies with whatever request you have made? If so, you are still punishing the dog, but not for doing something you want to stop (although that can be debated), but for not doing what you want at the speed of compliance you'd like.

From your examples of pup behaviour and learning within the litter, you have shown the aversives that take place between animals. You could go further and say that life experiences throw up natural aversives every day of the week. My own opinion is that nature can be harsh so why add to that harshness when there really is no need to do so.

I'm not nature. I'm a sentient being trying to work with another sentient being. There are far better and kinder ways to work things out so that both can reach a happy and reliable conclusion without the need for force on either side

All I can say on this, because I am not an expert on these types of things. The babies KNOW where the punishment is coming from, and why, because it happens immediately they have put a paw out of place, it doesn't come from out of the blue.
Now there are many many times when I have wished a bolt of lightening to strike Cariad, because she is hard work, but would she recognise that the lightening had struck her because of what she had done, I think she is more likely not to. I have got her to understand the 'leave' command and it works for us most of the time, this has been by repetition and lots of praise when she does as I ask, I ignore her, turn my back on her, walk away from her etc when she doesn't obey the command or is focusing on squirrels, other dogs, cats etc. She doesn't like being ignored or walked away from so she will quickly come to me and make her presence known, quickly forgetting what seemed more important to her only a minute ago.

Do you mind me asking how you her the Leave?

I ask only as I tend to set it up as an actual exercise, but I am wondering if you do what I used to do, which is to say "leave, LEAVE" sort of thing ... I found that more hit and miss, and more confusing, when I did it that way.

Wys
x

I like this, it's how I feel. Teamwork is the thing

[QUOTE=youngstevie;2655794][/B]

I hold my hands up FL E collars have never been personally used by me so I have no personal experience.
However I used to work with a guy called Pete (Lovely man) who lived with his father. They took on a young German Shepherd and I daresay they would of described him as 'wifully disobedient' or 'imperfect' and I know they loved him too, after trying many training places they seeked the advice of a behaviourist who suggested a E collar ..... only to be used not as a punishment but a 'corrective tool' I advised Pete NOT to use it (after meeting the dog) as he was more fearful rather than trying to be top dog....anyway they went ahead and for a short time it did seem to have the right effect....until one day when his Father used the 'corrective tool' and the dog flew at him and attacked him....resulting in the German Shepherd being destroyed and the Father having a large part of his cheek and neck stitched back.
The ending of this story was '' All German Shepherds can not be trusted''...or thats how people saw it when Pete told everyone what had happened..........I noticed People never saw what really had happened to this dog before Pete and his Father took him on....(that the dog had already suffered through pain ) ...beaten, kicked, grabbed by the scruff etc
No I can not tell you MY personal experience of E Collars....but I can give you a wealth of experience on Border Collies that have been misplaced, or abused due to misplacement with serious issues....and I ended up owning them with pleasure in the end ....via trust and patience, not by inflicting more pain[/QUOT

Youngstevie, There is so much wrong with this scenario I wouldn't know where to begin. I gather your do-worker was not the dog's first owner? Your advice to the owner re: the collar was spot on, and your observation that the dog's behavior (aggression? You didn't specify what the folks were trying to fix) was indeed fear-based, and instead was labeled as a "dominance" thing, happens all too often. IME, a true Alpha dog is a product of genetics, and is a very rare critter. I had the pleasure of breeding one, and I thank God every day for the opportunity to have known him; he taught me more about behavior than any book or trainer could have done.

And of course people blamed the breed of dog for the tragic incident, why on earth would anyone think to blame the humans, who so clearly are blessed with intelligence superior to all other animalsL I'm sorry that you had to witness this travesty. And bless you for your work with BC's. I wish more people would do their homework before getting a dog/selecting a breed.

I started with a piece of food in my hand and closing it and saying leave, then progressed to her leaving the food till I said she could have it, then food on the ground with her sitting next to it and so on. I can take anything off her anyway, so the next step was saying Leave when she had a bone and straight away she would stand up and let me take it. Then we did an exercise at training where she would have to sit and Leave any dogs that dared to look at her, now if a dog starts doing X shapes and barking at her, instead of throwing her toys out of the pram and going back at it, I say leave, and although she looks she carries on walking. The food one was easily learnt, it is leaving other dogs that bark at her that has taken a very long time, her instinct is to go and discipline them for daring to bark at her, and I'm not saying she is perfect or 100% but I can now work her offlead at training for instance, something which would have worried me just in case she had issues with another dog. I have always used a lot of praise and cuddles as well as food rewards, and have learnt to turn my back on her or give her a glare or long stare if she gives any indication of unwanted behaviour.
She can do out of sight stays as well now, send aways and stop on recall, all absolutely perfect.
Like I say many many times I have wished for that bolt from the blue, but I really don't think she would have joined the dots, it was about getting her to do what I wanted rather than what she felt she should be doing.

Maybe I missed some posts, but I read nothing that remotely addressed my question until Brierley responded. If you cannot remember the original question I posed, (and who could blame you, given the length of this thread!), perhaps you could review it.

And the thread seems to be "keeping on" quite nicely, thank you for your concern.

[QUOTE=Wyrekin;2655812]I'll give you a bit of background on Malcolm that my help explain his behaviour better. Malcolm ended up in rescue at a young age p, somewhere up to a year old. He was neutered prior to coming to rescue so has never fully matured. Malcolm was severely collar shy. From the behaviours I have seen him exhibit on having his collar touched or neck area touched I have concluded that in his previous home he was regularly scruffed and beaten round the head. I say this because the two times I have had to catch him to stop him going somewhere (my dad left the front door open...) he has immediately sat down and thrashed his head from side to side with his eyes shut. The first time it happened he wet himself and because his tail was so far tucked under his belly he got it all over that as well. It was really horrible to see. In rescue he struggled to cope and spent 6 months in their care. They did everything the could with him to try to get him to relax but he was so stressed by the sounds of the other dogs barking he'd scream at them. They worked on his collar shyness and when I first met him he allowed my to stroke him and touch his collar but he was clearly unnerved by this. The result is that I took on an under socialised, abused, stressed out dog that I'm pretty sure would have gone mad if I hadn't walked in to those kennels and rescued him.

On to your response. I have taught Malcolm to pay attention to me but as he spent his first year or so not receiving any form of formal training expect a beating it's a slow process. He firstly had to be taught that training is fun and just that training is all about give and take. The rescue got some basic commands in him but because he hated his kennel so much he used to run to the other side of the paddocks the minute he realised they were taking him back.

One of the first things I did with Malcolm was make use of his love of tennis balls, he's not particularly food motivated so I sought an alternative. Malcolm loves to play fetch. In the rescue the used to stick him on a long line and throw one ball one way wait for him to come most of the way back and throw the other ball the other way, then go and retrieve the first ball. His toy manners were atrocious when I got him. My first step was to teach him that in order to get the tennis ball thrown he had to work for it. I used a longline and two tennis balls at first and I introduced him to the rule that if he wanted the ball thrown he had to come right back to me, sit and let me put my hand in his collar. This taught him several things in one go :
1. If you want something you have to look to me to get it.
2. Hands in collars result in nice things like playing fetch.
3. If you don't do what you are told you don't get the toy.

Now I'm not going to lie and say it was all plain sailing, when I first tried him off the long line in the paddock he knew and made damn sure I couldn't get close enough to him. This was made more difficult by the fact that he had a tennis ball so why did he need to one I had? I also learnt early on that if I even touched the lead he'd been gone and wouldn't come within 10ft of me. I managed this behaviour by putting him on the lead at random intervals on our walks so that he learnt the lead didn't signify the end of the walk but just another stage within it (this solved the bolting away from the lead that you mentioned in your post)

You are correct that I admit to not having a reliable recall on Malcolm and to be perfectly honest part of that is down to my laziness. I took him on at the beginning of winter so his walks primarily take place before and after work which at this time of year is in the dark and as a result I have got into a rut of going out to the fields where I work letting him off and playing fetch rather than working on any really training. However the example you gave of him running towards a busy road and failing to respond should never become an issue as I would never have him off lead near a busy road even if I felt he had reliable recall. By keeping on the lead and preventing the behaviour I am in some ways training it out of him as I am not giving him the opportunity to practice running off and when I do call him if he doesn't comeback I can real him in on his longline and make him come back. He still gets a treat if he has to be reeled in but he gets a really boring one in comparison to a spot on recall. This is the only real 'correction' he receives by with holding the best stuff for when he works really hard.

Malcolm's recall is already significantly better than it was when I got him as he will atleast now return to my feet and allow the lead to be put on instead of standing far enough away to evade capture. I am now at the point where I can really work on his recall but I had to overcome the other obstacles such as the collar shyness before I could even contemplate working on it with him.

Your high drive dog sounds desperate to work for you but I have to question what her motivation was for going back in to the water to retrieve that dummy? Had you used a shock collar on her? Was her desire to go back in the water part of her high drive or in fact a desperate need to avoid the shock she expected upon not completing a command?

Bandit loves to work for me (I raised him myself from 7 weeks old). He'll do anything asked of him straight away, no questions asked and he looks so happy the entire time he's doing it, it's a delight to see. He has been trained by consistency and rewards. He was clicker trained from the start and any behaviours he offered freely were marked and rewarded, such as walking to heel off lead. I now have a dog who is confident in any situation, desperate to please but he has never felt physical pain caused deliberately by a human being. He learns quicker than the abused dogs I have cared for as he has no fear of learning, the worst that's going to happen is he doesn't get his reward, so he can concentrate on the task at hand.

The case of the shock collar on the back of the neck of the gentleman I think boils down to him being taken by surprise. He had no time to register what was happening before he got shocked. It could as you say have been a faulty one or it could be that they turned it up I cannot say but I do not feel this is the case.

I have to admit the anecdote about the man with the e-collar in his lap made me wince and chuckle at the same time![/QUOTE

The dog which suffered the heart attack in the incident I described was after a bird, not a bumper. We were hunting, not training.

C'mon now Wryekin, do you honestly think there is any human-applied force that could induce a dying (actually dead, for all intents and purposes) dog to do what this one did??? Really??? Did you not grasp the seriousness of her condition?? Her entire mouth was black, not blue or gray but black, and she was not breathing when I reached her. This was a dog which, as a youngster with very little training (read no force or commands involved), was separated from her quarry by a barbed wire fence, and did not even consider going around it, that would have taken her off target; no, her solution was to repeatedly bash the wire straight on and as hard as she could until she broke the lower strand, and laid her shoulder open in the process; which, by the way, she never even noticed until it was being stitched up at the vet.

My dog was not desperate in any sense of the word, and certainly did not rise from the dead out of a "desperate need" to work for me; nor was there a "desperate need" to avoid a shock, she had never had the collar on. (The only shock that would have been useful in this situation might have one from a defib machine, but I didn't happen to have one on me). I never gave her a command to retrieve, and to even suggest that I did is just silly, and a bit insulting; hell woman, I tried to stop her, and could not hold onto her because I was a bit feeble from my swim out to get her when she went down - in ice water - in January - in upstate NY.

Retrieve drive has it's basis in food-gathering, the dog is working for itself at the most elemental level. Ember was responding to her genetic drive, which, in combination with a high pain threshhold and an adrenalin surge, enabled her to block the pain and shock long enough to heed a drive that was just as strong in her as the drive to eat or breathe. It is difficult for people with no experience training and working high-drive dogs to comprehend how the drive affects the animal, and they can't even begin to imagine how drive helps a dog do things that seem impossible, and how it can help a dog learn. Everyone who is at all interested in the impact of genetics on behavior and training should avail themselves of the opportunity to at least observe such a dog in action.

I will respond to the rest of your post when I have more time. I apologize if this post seems to be overly emphatic, but this is not a pleasant incident to relive, even tho in retrospect it was pretty awe-inspiring.