register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
dogdragoness
Dogsey Senior
dogdragoness is offline  
Location: bellville tx
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 285
Female 
 
16-03-2011, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
Not read the whole thread but please remember dog dragoness that those of us who compete have very reliable and consistent dogs on the field without the need to "bribe" them with treats etc.

That is because toys and food are not allowed to be used, given or carried!

My dogs have thus been classically conditioned to expect a good time on the competition field and operant conditioned to expect to get "paid" at some point (usually in the car afterwards).

Dogs do not do things because of LOVE or because they "respect" the owner etc, they do things because they are obedient to the laws of learning and it is in their interests to do so.

You may poo pooh the use of treats but those people at the TOP of their trees ALL OVER THE WORLD, in Schutzhund, Working Trials, Obedience, HWTM etc use treats and many if not most are clicker trained.

But I prefer people who do NOT use treats, it means I have one less person I need to worry about beating!
Smoky ear that is right on, I didn't say treats were a bribe (though they can be if used incorrectly) I use a toy instead, with bear it was his fave squeak ball after an agility run, I use the same with Jo I use her squeaky baloon animal lol lol that she loves to practice come command & it works.

It became a habit not to rely on treats because in the competition ring & the field carrying a bag of treats around with other dogs (the bosses barn dogs) & various wild animals about I wouldn't want to carry around food lol.
Reply With Quote
Ben Mcfuzzylugs
Dogsey Veteran
Ben Mcfuzzylugs is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
Female 
 
16-03-2011, 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by dogdragoness View Post
Sorry rune I don't agree with that statement at all from anyone who makes it & I have read it a few times. What about people who volunteer? They don't get paid but they still get satisfaction from their work, why can't dogs be the same? I will admit to giving a biscuit every once & a while at night after a great day & after they have eaten their dinners.

I like to think of my dogs as volunteers so without relying on treats I instead make the work fun for them.
I make work fun for my dogs too, I also give them treats as part of that fun
sometimes I chuck a ball, pet them, go for walks, play chase games or let them go chase rabbits - but I give them food sometimes too because they find that fun too

They dont only work when there is food there
they dont need bribed, they dont need the food to be there to work

But because of pavlovian conditioning the actual act of DOING the work becomes as rewarding as getting the treat so doing the agility run or some tricks is something they feel very happy doing
Reply With Quote
dogdragoness
Dogsey Senior
dogdragoness is offline  
Location: bellville tx
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 285
Female 
 
16-03-2011, 08:04 PM
That's exactly what I'm saying, I just choose not to treat mine in the field. They get a biscuit at the end of the day but during work time.
Reply With Quote
canineSAR
New Member!
canineSAR is offline  
Location: Santa Clara, CA.
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2
Male 
 
20-03-2011, 02:54 AM
Hi Tupacs2legs,

From my experience, these questions are fairly easy to answer. Some may disagree with me, however I don’t think the wait/stay is necessary. A Sit is a Sit; A Down is a Down, and so on. One command, one action. Solidify the basics and you can have a solid dog.
SIT. Simply give the dog a Sit command, and put your left hand on the dogs chest and push the butt down. Do this protocol 10, 20, 50, 100 times over a 1 – 10 day time period, and you have a solid sit. Most dogs will not need 20 – 50 coaching’s with you pushing the butt down before they start to understand.
Down is the same protocol. Give the command, and then help the dog down. Repeats 10, 20, 50 times over a few days and you have a solid Down.
Recall is done on a long lead. Never let your dog off lead outside your home or yard unless you have a solid recall,….. and I mean 150% solid recall. Place the dog in a sit with the long 20 foot lead attached, and walk away. If the dog gets up and follows, you have to go back to the basics and solidify the sit. There is no need to train a Stay,… the dog should sit and stay sitting until you give the free or here/come command. So,.. Back to dog sitting. Walk away, then turn around and call your dog. Some dogs need a treat or toy, but I’m confident you get the picture. Make sure you give high praise when the dog completes the task. I forgot to say this on the sit protocol.
Heel can be trained by taking your dog for many walks in the neighborhood and using a choke chain or soft collar. Treats are often used to get the dogs attention, but eventually a combination of treats and corrections by pulling on the collar will get your dog in line. I’m obviously simplifying this training protocol, however if you need a video, I can post one on YouTube for you with more detail.
Solidifying and Incorporating sit, down, down on recall can be achieved by using an e-collar. Simple/light corrections (electric or buzz) with an e-collar are often used by some of the best trainers on the planet. Granted, some people don’t like e-collars, however I’ll argue they were never trained correctly if they have a negative response to e-collars. Only high titration (drive) dogs really need to be lit up with e-collars.

Hope this helps.

canineSAR
Reply With Quote
canineSAR
New Member!
canineSAR is offline  
Location: Santa Clara, CA.
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2
Male 
 
20-03-2011, 03:00 AM
combination of treats, praise, and toy reward in the beginning is always the best way to get what you want, but you eventually have to take that stuff away and relay on the dog doing what you want without any of those bribes (as they call it). Praise/treats at the end is always a good thing,.. makes you and dog happy. Training should be fun for both of you.
Reply With Quote
Chris
Dogsey Veteran
Chris is offline  
Location: Lincolnshire
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,921
Female 
 
20-03-2011, 07:35 AM
I once watched a TV programme about dog training. The guy on it, and I've forgotten the name, was showing how to teach a sit with a little westie. He used the 'lift head, push butt' method. It was hilarious. Over and over, he lifted and pushed. Over and over the dog didn't get it. His advice was to practice this 20-50 times a day over a period of 10 days to show the dog what was wanted.

Take a treat, lure the dog without hand on. Max 5 repetitions then move on to dropping the lure and using a hand signal and reward when completed. Move on to adding a cue word and reward when completed. Drop the reward for sit in that position (handler in front) and move on to rewarding for sit at side of handler, sit at back of handler etc.

I'll guarantee that in that 10 days, the rewarded dog would have a far more reliable (in all situations sit) than the lifted and pushed dog.

There seems to be a vast misconception that training with treats is training that is totally reliant on treats with dogs not performing when the treats are not there. Total BS of course.

However, there are very, very few times when my dog isn't rewarded. The rewards vary, from treats (very occasionally), toys, fuss, good lad. I so no problem in acknowledging a job well done at the time the job is completed rather than at the end of the day when the dog has lost all connection of what s/he is being rewarded for.
Reply With Quote
Crysania
Dogsey Veteran
Crysania is offline  
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,848
Female 
 
20-03-2011, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
IHowever, there are very, very few times when my dog isn't rewarded. The rewards vary, from treats (very occasionally), toys, fuss, good lad. I so no problem in acknowledging a job well done at the time the job is completed rather than at the end of the day when the dog has lost all connection of what s/he is being rewarded for.
Anyone who thinks they can reward a dog at the end of the day for everything it's done that day and thinks the dog understands shows a complete lack of understanding of dogs.
Reply With Quote
Crysania
Dogsey Veteran
Crysania is offline  
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,848
Female 
 
20-03-2011, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by canineSAR View Post
combination of treats, praise, and toy reward in the beginning is always the best way to get what you want, but you eventually have to take that stuff away and relay on the dog doing what you want without any of those bribes (as they call it). Praise/treats at the end is always a good thing,.. makes you and dog happy. Training should be fun for both of you.
As who calls it? People who call it a bribe don't understand how it works.

I see no reason to teach a dog loose leash walking with pain. I want the dog to stay near me because it WANTS to stay near me not because it's afraid to move away from me. I use negative punishment followed by positive reinforcement to teach it. So the dog pulls, we stop. We go nowhere (it's a method called "be as tree"). The dog doesn't get to rush to what it wants to get to (that's the negative punishment apsect). Then when the dog lets up and comes back to me, it gets rewarded, sometimes with a treat but often just with getting to walk again (which is a reward in itself). Rinse and repeat. It takes no time for the dog to realize that tension on the leash means going nowhere and that a lack of tension means getting to walk. And coupled with that the dog returns to check in with you frequently.

I can't imagine keeping a dog next to me through positive punishment (and besides, most dog owners don't want nor need their dog to heel -- on walks I want my dog to explore and sniff, not stay glued to my side...and since I have no interest in competition obedience, I have never been interested in teaching a proper heel).
Reply With Quote
Tupacs2legs
Dogsey Veteran
Tupacs2legs is offline  
Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
Female 
 
20-03-2011, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by canineSAR View Post
Hi Tupacs2legs,

From my experience, these questions are fairly easy to answer. Some may disagree with me, however I don’t think the wait/stay is necessary. A Sit is a Sit; A Down is a Down, and so on. One command, one action. Solidify the basics and you can have a solid dog.
SIT. Simply give the dog a Sit command, and put your left hand on the dogs chest and push the butt down. Do this protocol 10, 20, 50, 100 times over a 1 – 10 day time period, and you have a solid sit. Most dogs will not need 20 – 50 coaching’s with you pushing the butt down before they start to understand.
Down is the same protocol. Give the command, and then help the dog down. Repeats 10, 20, 50 times over a few days and you have a solid Down.
Recall is done on a long lead. Never let your dog off lead outside your home or yard unless you have a solid recall,….. and I mean 150% solid recall. Place the dog in a sit with the long 20 foot lead attached, and walk away. If the dog gets up and follows, you have to go back to the basics and solidify the sit. There is no need to train a Stay,… the dog should sit and stay sitting until you give the free or here/come command. So,.. Back to dog sitting. Walk away, then turn around and call your dog. Some dogs need a treat or toy, but I’m confident you get the picture. Make sure you give high praise when the dog completes the task. I forgot to say this on the sit protocol.
Heel can be trained by taking your dog for many walks in the neighborhood and using a choke chain or soft collar. Treats are often used to get the dogs attention, but eventually a combination of treats and corrections by pulling on the collar will get your dog in line. I’m obviously simplifying this training protocol, however if you need a video, I can post one on YouTube for you with more detail.
Solidifying and Incorporating sit, down, down on recall can be achieved by using an e-collar. Simple/light corrections (electric or buzz) with an e-collar are often used by some of the best trainers on the planet. Granted, some people don’t like e-collars, however I’ll argue they were never trained correctly if they have a negative response to e-collars. Only high titration (drive) dogs really need to be lit up with e-collars.

Hope this helps.

canineSAR
hmm..havnt read back the 30 odd pages..but would like you to remind me why this post is aimed at me please
Reply With Quote
dogdragoness
Dogsey Senior
dogdragoness is offline  
Location: bellville tx
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 285
Female 
 
22-03-2011, 01:43 AM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
I once watched a TV programme about dog training. The guy on it, and I've forgotten the name, was showing how to teach a sit with a little westie. He used the 'lift head, push butt' method. It was hilarious. Over and over, he lifted and pushed. Over and over the dog didn't get it. His advice was to practice this 20-50 times a day over a period of 10 days to show the dog what was wanted.

Take a treat, lure the dog without hand on. Max 5 repetitions then move on to dropping the lure and using a hand signal and reward when completed. Move on to adding a cue word and reward when completed. Drop the reward for sit in that position (handler in front) and move on to rewarding for sit at side of handler, sit at back of handler etc.

I'll guarantee that in that 10 days, the rewarded dog would have a far more reliable (in all situations sit) than the lifted and pushed dog.

There seems to be a vast misconception that training with treats is training that is totally reliant on treats with dogs not performing when the treats are not there. Total BS of course.

However, there are very, very few times when my dog isn't rewarded. The rewards vary, from treats (very occasionally), toys, fuss, good lad. I so no problem in acknowledging a job well done at the time the job is completed rather than at the end of the day when the dog has lost all connection of what s/he is being rewarded for.
That's method (lift treat lure Back so dog follows into a sit, say sit as their butt drops) now she sits when I hold my index finger up & say sit.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 36 of 38 « First < 26 33 34 35 36 37 38 >


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools


© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top