I often find people try to human-ise there dogs, when talking to them they talk about them in as if they have the same needs and wants as a young child, I think this can cause alot of problems as we all know the needs of a dog are compleaty diff,
People forget that a dog would rather be off in the woods getting dirty and sniffing round, as apposed to having there little pink track suit put on and designer boots, then patroled round some busy streets, on a short designer lead,
or even worse a bag,,,,,

If I was humanising a dog, I'd say they improve because they want to please you, and know what they've been doing doesn't please you.

But on a more basic level, surely it's just a learned behaviour, like lab rats (push a button and get a treat), so the dog thinks:

sit down on command and get a treat
don't jump up at people because you get shouted at

Surely it's just learning. I'd like to think that Max does what I ask because he loves me, but deep down, I don't think that's the reason at all...

We seem to keep coming back to Dog Borstal!

The difference you are seeing with your dog GSD lover is that your trainer has obviously assessed your situation first hand and has shown you carefully how to use an aversive method. However, if clips from your training was to be shown on TV, what impression do you think that would portray to other owners with dogs with similar problems (and I'm sorry, I don't know what the problem is). Do you think they would call your trainer or another trainer to come in and assess, or do you think they would go down the route of 'hey, it works, let's try it' ??

The problem is that your dog accepts the aversive, another dog, however similar, may very well reject it and hit out at the aversive being used, or to those applying it (it happens very regularly).

Just to dispel a bit of a myth that seems to be coming up quite regularly, trainers who choose not to use sound or physical aversives don't just have one technique because one technique will only work with some dogs. They have a wealth of techniques to hand within the realms of reward based training and a good reward based trainer will tailor the training to suit the dog/owner partnership they are working with.

One thing that is essential with reward based training is to work with the 'whole' relationship. It's not just a matter of working with symptoms and systematically stopping each symptom as it arises (and, in all honesty) if you do work on stopping symptoms rather than looking at the whole picture, you will find that as one symptom disappears, another emerges. Finding the 'cause' and working through that, doesn't result in other unwanted symptoms appearing.

I'm assuming that your trainer is working towards dealing with the cause as well as the symptoms. Those watching DB, unfortunately, only see the treatment of symptoms, don't have professional assessment before applying techniques and so often find themselves with bigger problems than the one they were trying to erase.

As well, in that case your issue is with foolish people, not with any trainers or methods used? Isn't it?

I can't remember who said it or where I read it, but I recall someone saying "give me a pound of liver and thirty minutes and I'll make your dog forget you ever existed". It's so true. We'd all love to think that our dogs are so much more than they are, and give so much more than they give, but it's my firm belief they are better trainers than any human will ever be!

Oh yes! If someone in the park has better treats than me, Max will go and sit in front of them giving a "paw" until forcibly removed....

He also behaves better for other people than me frequently.

At training class, I couldn't get him to do one thing (forget what it was now), but as soon as the trainer took hold of his lead, he was the perfect dog. He behaved as if in a show ring! Little b****r, no loyalty you know

Max has trained us to lift him into the car... not sure when he did this, but we do it all the time, and now we ask him to jump in, he just looks really dopey, as if he doesn't know what "up" means.... (but understands "up" in the context of getting on the sofa/bed/someone's knee)

What about the dog that goes off food though and refuses to move from its bed when the owner has gone ?

Absolutely

great saying and sadly true in many cases,,,,lol my lot could be bought for far less some cold chips would do,,,part rott part wheely bin,,,

I really don't have issues with anyone at all - each to their own, but I do have beliefs and will debate those 'til the cows come home

I will though, make a couple of comments:

People aren't foolish. We aren't born with knowledge of how to live with another species so some of what we do may be misguided. That isn't foolishness, it's lack of knowledge.

I do have issues with training methods that can and often do cause a lot of harm.

Now you're confusing me as you seem to be switching. Do you mean can do harm "if used incorrectly" in this context? Or are you the arbiter on what is and what is not harm, and if so, what is that based upon?

You seem to presume that people watch a programme and just go and do exactly what's shown or stated, without any thought. Why can't advertisers get such degrees of complicity? Wilkinson Sword bless them, they can't get their razors to be anywhere near as popular as Gillette, for example. So what makes you think this case is so unique?