epilepsy update, seizures every 2 weeks, milk thistle question

Hi There,

Cedric (Beagle ) has now ben having seizures for about 2 months. He is on 45mg phenobarb. twice a day but is still having seizures every 2 weeks. He will also always have 2 seizures within 24 hours . They are very mild and despite being a little wobbly there is very little after effects and he will come round almost immediately. The vet has checked his blood for the phenobarb. levels and this seems o.k.

I have 2 questions if anybody can help.

After reading other peoples experiences on this website , seizures 2 weeks apart seems a little too frequent! Does anybody else have dogs with such frequent seizures?

I have been looking high and low for milk thistle tablets. Where can i get them from??

Thanks in advance

Milk Thistle

Can recommend this company they are very quick & nice to deal with

I dont want to be a damp squib, but please dont try additional therapies without approval from your vet, as even herbal remedies can interfere with other medications.

Have a chat with your vet about it, and if he/ she will not consider anything herbal as an addition, it would be worth you getting a second opinion because some vets do prescribe Skullcap and Valerian in addition to anticonvulsants for epilepsy / siezures, but again, this should be through your vet and tailored to the meds your littl`un is already on.

If your vet has not suggested it, perhaps he/she feels it wont help on a clinical basis and has already ruled out anything herbal, or on the other scale maybe has never considered complimentary therapies, so I would definately have a thorough chat with your vet or get a second opinion if you need it.
I`m sorry I cant offer anything more in the way of advice but I can send you a )))hug(((.

I agree with Patch. milk thistle is to protect the liver but in my experience and talking to vets about this (+seminars that Ive been to) high levels or prolonged use of phenobarb is more likely to basicall fry the brain before the liver.....the studies on the effects of pheno on the liver vary depending which study you read....over use of milk thistle can actually suppress liver function also.

2 weeks is a bit too often with epilepsy, the usual is 4 - 6weeks but I have known it happen in less time than that. Have other meds been tried? Have you tried using valium 'as needed' or KBr which is recommended for use in dog that already have impaired liver function?

Milk Thistle & Phenobarbitone

Actually as Pheno damages the liver MT is often given(by open minded conventional vets)to animals on Pheno to prevent liver damage

Yeah...Joe Im not saying that pheno doesnt effect the liver, just saying that Ive seen more cases where a dog has been on long term pheno or high dose pheno where the liver is functioning fine but the brain is fried.

Milk Thistle is great but again...prolonged/high volume use can have a negative effect on the liver also.

Theres more than one drug around to treat epilepsy with.

Er Who is Joe ????? not me if you read my signature

All I did was supply a link for Milk Thistle i didn't advise using it with or without veterinary advice BTW

I will make this as comprehensive as possible but am a bit busy so please look up posts by me on the subject of seizure or epilepsy or Loki.

My dog has been having cluster seizures since Feb this year. We had all the tests (including MRI) but he has been diagnosed as having idiopathic epilepsy.

Initially prescribed phenobarbital (PB). Reacted v badly to this (adverse reaction) - climbing the walls, hyper, crying, stumbling, manic - so we took it off him and having thoroughly read the Guardian Angels epilepsy website (brilliant!)

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-...m/site_map.htm

decided to ask that he be put on potassium bromide (KBr) instead. This is often used if PB causes adverse reaction (not that common but I think my boy is unique) or as an adjunct treatment or if PB doesn't work. It has taken a good 3-4 months but Loki hasn't had a seizure for almost 8 weeks. SOOOO much better when you realise he was getting them 10 - 14 days apart initially.
KBr has a better side effect profile and does not cause the liver toxicity that PB causes. With PB I would strongly advocate the use of milk thistle as this has been shown to reduce, help, improve liver degeneration.

I'm trying hard to remember everything but with PB also dogs become used to it so the dose has to be increased periodically.

Side effects with PB are increased appetite, ataxia (weakness) of the back legs, confusion, sedation, increased thirst but these should pass with time. Liver problems are a long term reality and liklihood with increased dose.

With KBr - increased appetie and thirst, ataxia, sedation - again these should pass.

From a PERSONAL point of view I would choose KBr over PB but that is only MY point of view. KBr is not the drug of choice for most vets as they are used to administering PB but I have never been one to follow fashion and my dog did not react well to PB.

Many, many dogs do well on PB (see Snorri's article) it just did not work for us.

PB should begin to work (reaches therapeutic levels) within 2 weeks. KBr takes 3 months or longer.

In the meantime the dog will continue to have fits. We were also advised to use rectal diazepam (valium) after the first fit as our dog has cluster fits (lots in a short space of time) and this is meant to stop them. The jury is still out here as I am not sure the diazepam did much- BUT every dog is different and what works on one may well not work on another.

Supplemental stuff - we give taurine tablets, vit C, milk thistle (ever other day or so), kelp.

During a fit try to keep calm, keep noise and light levels low. Make sure you keep away from gnashing teeth and comfort the dog. The post-ictal phase is often the worst where he is pacing, anxious, blind, excited - keep furniture etc. out of his way as he will bang into it. Offer food and drink as this is a very taxing time for them.

An ice-pack on the back (see Guardian Angels website) during a fit may help stop a cluster or bring him out more quickly. Rescue Remedy may help too. Keep blood sugar levels up with organic ice-cream (we give this (a spoonful) before bed) or a rice-cake with honey/low-salt cream-cheese) - that kind of thing.

If the dog is on KBr it is really important to ensure a salt-free diet as the chloride in salt can replace the bromide in KBr and lower the usefulness of the drug.

A natural, preservative-free diet will help - BHT, BHA, ethoxyquin in commerical diets can bring on seizures.

ANy questions PLEASE PM me and I will try to help.

A dog can live a full and happy life with epilepsy, I promise you. As I said my dog has gone from having fits every 10-14 days to CURRENTLY 2 months with the right treatment for him. Can't be bad, eh?

Scuse me for using your username!!
If you read your post again youve stated that pheno damages the liver....it doesnt in every case so I responded to that and the fact that studies show that Milk Thistle in prolonged or over use can be detrimental to liver function.
Just adding to the information given....isnt that what the forum is about? Different people, different experiences.

Hi Flipper - do you have any links to support this - I would be interested to read it as I was given to believe that milk thistle protects and supports liver function and helps regenerate the liver.