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View Poll Results: Poll - Do you agree you should be alpha male over your dog?
Yes 70 39.33%
No 71 39.89%
Other, please specify 37 20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Wysiwyg
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07-05-2009, 07:04 AM
Originally Posted by Hannaho View Post
Im sorry but dont all hate me!! - i defently believe in the alpha - pack leader as i call it. in my opinion dogs need leaders otherwise it would be total choas!
Hi, welcome
I think almost all of us are in agreement dogs need "leaders" or "parents" and guidance, and to be taught manners, that sort of thing - it's better for the dog as they then feel more safe and relaxed in human society.

But pack leader as in alpha - it isn't the same as the above.

Occasionally, a dog will try to become the pack leader by edging out the old leader through force. Only the toughest of dog leaders will be able to remain in control of the pack.
I'd say this is very incorrect Hannaho, sorry. As far as I am aware there is no evidence anywhere for this.

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Wysiwyg
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07-05-2009, 07:12 AM
For anyone wishing to read more about the research here's some links showing that the idea of alpha/pack leader is incorrect:

This link is excellent as it draws everything together with some more good links to articles:

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm


Dogs are not tame wolves. The domestic dog is a separate species that evolved from wolves approximately 14,000 years ago and exhibit behaviors that wolves do not. They also do not display behaviors that wolves do, such as regurgitating food for their young.


Whatever happened to the term Alpha Wolf?

http://www.4pawsu.com/alphawolf.pdf

Amercan Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour:
(good bit on page 2 about how leadership differs from dominance)

http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancestatement.pdf

Wys
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Gnasher
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07-05-2009, 08:31 AM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
No-one is denying that dogs came from wolves...or even that they exhibit predertory behaivour.

We are disagreeing on the initial principles....the Alpha idea.

SE appears to think that Alphas are born with specific ideas and 'groomed' by the parents to fit into specific roles within a pack.

Other wolf/behaivour experts disgaree with this, the main thought being that the Alpha pair are the parents. Once a pup grows up and leaves a pack, if it then manages to find a mate and reproduce it becomes an alpha....this has nothing to do with innate or learnt behaviour but is luck of finding a mate and being able to reproduce.

Under that theory we could never be a true Alpha as we are not the same species.
Nice brought us back onto the original subject of Pidge's thread, Tassle !

I am a nature not nurture girl. I believe wholeheartedly that ALL pack animals ... us included ... are the way we are because of our genetic makeup. Ipso facto, alphas are born, not made. I do not hold at all with the idea that somehow a wolf born with a fairly lowly rank, say Beta Nanny, can somehow become an apha. This is absolute nonsense IMO. Why? Because it's not logical ! Wolves would not be able to survive if this were the case, because there would be anarchy and mayhem with all these alphas fighting amongst themselves as to who was the most alpha-ist ! Shaun Ellis is right ... alphas are very rare in both dogs and wolves.

I shall continue to do what I know works with Tai, and that is to act as a good Pack Leader.
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Gnasher
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07-05-2009, 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by Hannaho View Post
Hi wow this is a really intresting subject.

Im sorry but dont all hate me!! - i defently believe in the alpha - pack leader as i call it. in my opinion dogs need leaders otherwise it would be total choas!

I have studied dogs for years , especialy my breed the beagle.

Dogs are social animals. In the wild, they run around in packs. They work together, play together, and sleep together. Basically, a dog pack is a huge team. Like most teams, there is a captain in the dog pack. This is the dog who is the leader, and the one who calls the shots. If the dog leader decides that it is time for the pack to migrate, the dogs migrate. If he says its time to rest, all the dogs lie down to rest.

Dogs are hardwired to follow the pack leader. This doesn't mean, however, that they do not try to take control occasionally. Occasionally, a dog will try to become the pack leader by edging out the old leader through force. Only the toughest of dog leaders will be able to remain in control of the pack.

It is important that people become the dog leader so that there dog does not. When you do not take the role, thier dog will assume that he is the one that should take the role and will start to run your entire family. people need to become the pack leader in order to get there dog to properly listen to them. Being the pack leader is not as difficult as it sounds, and will actually make your dog love and respect you even more.

Its like every social animal , most of us would hate to admit it but we as children listened to what our parents said did what they did looked up to them . Lions have leaders, even dolphins.
Basically anything that lives in a pack needs a leader otherwise it just wouldnt work.
And im not tough on my dogs at all i love them to pieces i spoil them they even sleep on my bed ( i know they shouldnt) but i couldnt own beagles and not be the leader my house would be destroyed by now and when we go walking they wouldnt listen to me to come back when there off lead ,

sorry for goin on a bit but this is my opinion.
And a great opinion it is too !! Nice to have you on board, it's getting very lonely for me here !!
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Wysiwyg
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07-05-2009, 08:35 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Nice brought us back onto the original subject of Pidge's thread, Tassle !

I am a nature not nurture girl. I believe wholeheartedly that ALL pack animals ... us included ... are the way we are because of our genetic makeup. Ipso facto, alphas are born, not made. I do not hold at all with the idea that somehow a wolf born with a fairly lowly rank, say Beta Nanny, can somehow become an apha. This is absolute nonsense IMO. Why? Because it's not logical ! ....
Just very quickly as I should not be on here but I saw a programme on Nat Geo. where a very low ranking wolf (as they called it) did actually make the way to mating and having her own pups... in effect, she became an "alpha".

In the Yellowstone group apparently Mech says there are several breeding pairs as the group is unusually large.

I believe the genes are the gun and bullets, and its the environment which pulls the trigger. It's a huge argument but I believe generally scientists now believe it's literally both nature and nurture.

I of course don't agree with Shaun that some pups are beta, alpha or anything else - alpha schmalpha, Shaun

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Gnasher
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07-05-2009, 08:41 AM
Originally Posted by ajshep1984 View Post
Agreed!



I am, please continue.



But there is a difference in DNA which you have already accepted is most probably related to behaviour and that is exactly what we are talking about, dogs DO NOT behave like wolves.


Dogs aren't wolves.

How do you presume they know they are?

By playing fetch and enjoying walks?
Glad you're not dying of boredom aj !!

Indeed, the fraction of a % difference in the DNA between dog and wolf is behavioural, quite true. I have never said that dogs behave exactly the same as wolves, there are differences, of course there are. The most glaring and outstanding one being that wild wolves are petrified of man for a very good reason. All domesticated wolves, even those that have been raised as a normal dog in a domestic situation, will retain that aloofness or even slight fear. I know this for a fact because I am in regular communication with a lovely man in the States who has a bitch 100% wolf whom he has intensely socialised and to all intents and purposes is a dog. Apart from her looks, it is obvious though to anyone who knows dogs that she is very different ... holds something back. she is friendly, amenable, but just has that something that tells you she is not like an ordinary dog.

To me, this is the attraction of a wolf cross. They too have retained this aloofness, which I love.
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Gnasher
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07-05-2009, 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Gnasher, yet again you manage to twist the argument around deviating from the subject to go on about your own dogs and stating the obvious as if it is some kind of 'truth' only you have discovered.

No one has said dogs are not descended from wolves, no one has said dogs don't hunt . That doesn't mean dogs are unable to recognise a human as being something other than their own species, therefore how can humans possibly be as the original post asks 'their pack leader'.

There are links and references in this thread to the findings of extensive studies asserting that the original premise on which the alpha theory is based is flawed but you choose to ignore all those.

Perhaps when one owns a type of dog which was bred to look like a wolf and is so wrapped up in the idea that they own something approaching a wolf they find it difficult to see beyond this. you are addressing Promethean here, yet again you state dogs never 'just bite' etc as if it it a truth only you are party to . I am sure Promethean is quite able to speak to us for hours on the reasons why dogs bite.

Maybe you don't feel you can 'have a sensible dialogue' with Promethean but that doesn't mean the rest of us can't or that we can't gain something from his very knowledgeable posts.

Sorry Mini, like many others on here ... including yourself may I add - I tend to shoot from the hip, to speak my mind. My posts are rambling and far too long at the best of times, if I start to add bits to soothe and assuage sensibilities, they would become even more boring than they most likely are !!

You are right, I haven't followed up yet on any of the fascinating links to various pieces of research, which is why I haven't commented on them. This is 1) because OH (alpha male ! ) goes absolutely bonkers every time he finds me on here, so I don't have much time and 2) I have been suffering from flu for nearly 2 weeks now and am feeling absolutely lousy and certainly my brain is not up to anything too technical at the moment. When I am better I fully intend to do some reading.

You'll just have to believe me when I draw on my extensive experience of wolves and high % crosses. I don't care whether you or anyone else thinks otherwise, so please don't drag this very nice thread where we are all getting on so well down into the mire by making inaccurate insinuations. You are entitled to think what you think, but only I am in a position to be entitled to KNOW

I don't mean to post remarks that seem to be condescending (sp?), but that is just my way I'm afraid, warts and all I am a flawed human being the same as all of us.

And I apologise to Promethean if I have been rude. I didn't mean to be, but as we are both barking from such completely different hymn sheets, I felt it was pointless carrying on addressing each other. Of course I didn't mean to imply that no-one else would not be interested and agree or disagree with either of us. I for one really enjoy reading his posts, and when I am feeling better I shall be reading up on all the links etc.

For every bit of research, there will be an opposing bit of research. We should all remember that, all of us, on both sides of the argument about whether we should or should not be Pack Leader.
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Gnasher
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07-05-2009, 08:55 AM
Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
The point is that it is a fabrication when it comes to wolves and not applicable when it involves dogs.

The phrase "not even wrong" comes to mind when hearing such blabber. (Google it)

Gnasher you've been disagreeing with current scientific evidence since the beginning. It's not me you has an issue with, it is the reality of science

I and others here have provided dozens of citations from every related field yet you persist with your claims but never offer up any evidence to support it. The work of Mech, Fox, Boitani, Dunbar, Beach and others has come up to show you that your view of wolves, hybrids and dogs is not real ... you've haven't provided one iota to support your views. BTW, "I saw it in my backyard" or "I believe" is not evidence nor are the views of a self proclaimed expert wolf expert.

Disagree all you want, I don't mind. And if you can provide evidence I will even be thankful for the opportunity to learn

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Promethean, thank you for your civil post, and I apologise unreservedly if I have been rude to you ! Mini has reminded me of my manners, and I apologise but I get very carried away sometimes when I am talking about a subject that I have a lot of PRACTICAL knowledge and experience.

I have not followed up any of the links on this fascinating thread, because I am just not up to it at the moment. I can't shake off this wretched flu, and am going to the doctor's tomorrow. When I am better, I shall have a lot of reading to do !
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Gnasher
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07-05-2009, 08:59 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Hi, welcome
I think almost all of us are in agreement dogs need "leaders" or "parents" and guidance, and to be taught manners, that sort of thing - it's better for the dog as they then feel more safe and relaxed in human society.

But pack leader as in alpha - it isn't the same as the above.



I'd say this is very incorrect Hannaho, sorry. As far as I am aware there is no evidence anywhere for this.

Wys
x
There's evidence Wys !! I know you don't like him, but talk to Shaun Ellis ... he lives with his own domesticated pack at Combe Martin, but also with wild wolves in America with the Nez Perce indians.
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Gnasher
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07-05-2009, 09:04 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Just very quickly as I should not be on here but I saw a programme on Nat Geo. where a very low ranking wolf (as they called it) did actually make the way to mating and having her own pups... in effect, she became an "alpha".

In the Yellowstone group apparently Mech says there are several breeding pairs as the group is unusually large.

I believe the genes are the gun and bullets, and its the environment which pulls the trigger. It's a huge argument but I believe generally scientists now believe it's literally both nature and nurture.

I of course don't agree with Shaun that some pups are beta, alpha or anything else - alpha schmalpha, Shaun

Wys
x
I wonder if that was the same programme I saw? Where there was a lone male sniffing around a pack. During a hunt and subsequent kill, a naughty female slipped off and had sex with this lone male. Unfortunately for them, during the tie the rest of the pack smelled a rat and came to see what was going on ! They were caught de flagrante, frantically trying to break their tie which of course they couldn't do. The poor male was absolutely petrified and was attacked by the alpha male and his betas, but for some reason wasn't killed. Normally, both the lone male and the female would have been killed, or at least very seriously wounded and left for dead.

I did wonder whether it was a set up, because it is extraordinary that both parties got off so comparatively lightly.
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