There are as many ideas and experiences as there are dog owners. I have lived with a pack of dogs for nearly 20 years. I no longer care for theories, studies and evidence. Over the years theories change, studies are turned on their heads and evidence is produced on both sides of the argument.

In my real world, in my real pack there is hierarchy and there is a pack leader.

I believe that dogs are, in a way, like people. There are entrepreneurs, opportunists and risk takers at the top, in the middle there are the biddable, amenable, middle of the road, don’t rock the boat, ’go with whoever I can benefit from’ characters, and shy, retiring, timid, indecisive, ‘don’t know anything’ shrinking violets at the bottom.

And maybe, just maybe, the people who haven’t experienced pack hierarchy have only owned dogs from the two lower levels, that naturally looked up to them and respected them and had no interest in leading their pack.

here ia a frieght train named ,mo

I used to believe in pack theory but don't now.

I can't actually see it now - because when I see what I tihnk others might describe as "alpha" behaviour, I see it in a completely different way

Much more akin to this:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/if-not-dominance.php

To an extent, we will always see what we want to see. If a person sees what they interpret as alpha behaviour, and wish it to be so, they will keep calling it that. As long as it doesn't effect the dog welfare and the relationships between dogs and owners perhaps it doesn't matter.

Sadly, I've seen far too many dog/owner relationships messed up by owners getting upset because somebody has toldthem their dog is trying to be alpha because it's pulling on the lead, when in fact it's trying to get to the park! Or because it's growling at them when in fact it's trying to communicate safely. And so on.

Every thing was about dominance, so thank goodness that at least that has altered for the most part - we are starting to think more and to act with more sense, these days.

I won't even mention the appalling training practices promoted by some past and even present trainers, based on dominance theory and the view that humans must be pack leader at all costs. Sometimes at the cost of the dog's life. Which is just the worst thing when they are meant to be our best friends. We forget that, conveniently, at times.

As long as we are open minded, and at least read up a bit on new info, that is all we can do at the end of the day.

Wys
x

Exactly what I have said for years!

You don't see it all the time and you have to be there.

rune

The trouble is, once you say Pack some people think Jungle Book and go all Law of the Wild on you.
Of course there is a structure in groups of dogs - same as in any other species. Elephants, giraffes, ants, badgers.... But structures are flexible and fluid.
It is Man who has decided (for his own reasons) to invent the model of The Leader and His Mate who set the rules. In nature it simply doesn`t work like that.
Yes, one of my dogs will tell the others to do stuff in certain situations. But in others, another dog will rise. By simplifying dog-dog interactions (and remember much of their communication is missed by us) we do the species a disservice.
Most Doggy behaviour is about avoiding confrontation, about expediency, about avoiding getting into a ruck because the other guy has got great big teef and injury is to be avoided wherever possible, not about status.

Excellent post by MMM and very true, the only thing I would add is that, as I have said before, the dynamics of the pack can (and will change) in different contexts/over different resources.

I like Alexandra Horowitz's view of a "gang" rather than a pack as I often think that is what they resemble (in certain situations)

I find that the dogs are fairly static in 'position' and the bitches are the moveable feasts.

The dogs 'uncle' pups and then pass the task on to the next one. It seems to be the younger dogs that do that, Benj has no interest and no patience to do it but he is nearly 5 and wasn't brought up in a group---I wonder if that makes a difference.

rune

I think you may be right, although one friend of mine who breeds says that a real "top dog" often rules everyone, but when a bitch runs the pack, they do move in and out of position depending on the context.

I used to experiment with a similar thing with horses both in the yard and when out riding, to see if the behaviours they exhibited in the field were mirrored when out of that field.

I like that explanation - could almost be applied to the human world as well!

What happened to her poor ears