*Jenny i brought him to work, not to look good and prance around a show ring..*

So what made you choose that specific breed, there are other working dogs??

I show my Labs & can assure you we certainly don`t *prance* round any ring

Its ok jenny, you didnt upset me, takes alot more believe you me

My point is the breeds have suffered alot over the years, people desperatly trying to get dogs within the standard, which in general again IMO are too strict!

My point is being missed, its a BAD idea to scrap breed standards all together, but i do believe they should be relaxed. If a collie ends up the size of a mastiff so be it, its mother nature, a collie i know is roughly 65cm to the shoulder, he is a wonderful dog who compeates in agility.
Im saying dogs shouldnt be so harshly judged, who are we to play god?

I brought a Border Collie because i wanted to compeate professionally in agility, if he doesnt do well, so be it, we will do what makes him happy.
Whether people agree or not BC's/WSD are the consistant high winners in agility.

I see a lot of working sheepdogs working. They range in size, colour, shape, length of coat etc etc. They are all good working dogs.

However, I agree with the breed standards as I do think the breeds would go haywire without them. However, again , all the working strain breeds seem to be a lot smaller than their show cousins, that's what I can't undersand. None of mine would ever win in a show ring (apart from maybe my gwp as they are generally still dual purpose) but they do the job that we want them to.

Going to the beagles, we used to have a beagle hunt around here and they were certainly a LOT different to those in the show ring.

If we didn't, we wouldn't have the wide range of breeds that we have today. If a collie ended up the size of a bullmastiff, it wouldn't be able to work the hills like we see today.

Helen

i think that some standards are to much and others dont say enough.


and as for colour like black and tan in Stafford's, if that was let in the ring then 80% of Stafford's would be black and tan as the colour is dominant over black and red

Would that really be such a crime? what is the problem with colour, why does it matter? its purely cosmetic!

Helen yes there are such a wide variety of shape sizes colours coat types in collies, one of the things i like so much about them.
More emphasis is put on their working abilities rather than their looks, of course there are always breeders who are different.

no colour is not every thing but staffords come in lots of colours and it would be a shame to loss them

Having fairly recently attended the breed seminar for Dalmatians and sat the judges diploma, I am aware that the standard for my breed - any maybe others - is quite vague in places.

For example we have:-

head of FAIR length (my capitals)
eyes MODERATELY well apart
chest should be NOT TOO WIDE but deep and capacious
tail.... should not be inserted too high or too low

what is fair, what is moderate? Ten judges would give you ten possibly different answers. Other aspects, such as feet, movement, temperament and coat/spotting is more specific and perhaps is of more importance. There has been much discussion on a Dalmatian webring on this subject, height is a touchy subject too, very close to some people's hearts, but at the end of the day it can only be SUBJECTIVE. When you duck under the tapes and show your dog, you are seeking the opinion of the judge who may not see things exactly as you do. I want my dog to be judged as an example of a breed that was used for a specific job and is likely to be able to do it well, without putting any strain on joints or other undesirable side effects. But that is just my opinion
I would like to think in an ideal world, any extreme features or "undesirable" trends would be reflected in mediocre show results for those exhibits and encourage breeding closer to the standard, and for the sake of good health and a dog with all the attributes expected of it. Unfortunately we are not in an ideal world.

Gill

Spotsmad illustrates a point I believe may be the problem of breeds seperating in to different strains , for example , springers (working) and springers (show) because the breed standard is so vague this leaves them open to interpretation by breeders.

Forgive me for not researching the subject thoroughly, but for example in the springer breed standard if I remember correctly it says, should have kind eye's? and a gait all of its own? one mans kind eye is another mans evil stare, and who is to say what a standard gait should be.

I use the springer purely as an example and not to diss it it any way.

Whilst I would agree that "banning" certain colours or other attributes may be seen as being inappropriate, it often goes deeper than the visual impact. Unfortunately - and I can only speak with confidence about my own breed - some of the "undesirable" features are the product of genetic faults or poor breeding practices, neither of which are helpful in producing healthy stock and a secure future for the breed as a sound animal.
This isn't to say that a new colour is automatically the result of a "problem" or has other implications - but sometimes a little careful research can explain a lot.


Gill