I have to disagree. i do not place human emotions on to a dog about a crate, and i agree that some people do find it hard to use them because they see them as a prison from a humans point of view BUT even though i think crates are really good tools they should be used in short sessions.

Keeping an active pup in a crate for four hours, one walk and then four hours would be detrimental to the pup and using it for the owners benefits only, ignoring what is best for the dog which is a fair balance of quiet relaxing times, stimulation, exercise and company. 8 hours in a crate would not meet this balance for any dog!

I like how you picked this part of my reply out and then chose to ignore the rest.

What you are basically saying is that using a crate is cruel, and that because YOU have never/would never use one, NO ONE should use one. Comparing crating a dog properly to battery chickens is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

When a dog is crated it SLEEPS. The dog, provided it is exercised and stimulated sufficiently, doesn't sit there wide awake or spinning around like a maniac. It SLEEPS. When you sleep at night, you generally remain in your bed for the duration of the night -- *gasp* generally 7 hours or more. So, I fail to see how containing a dog to what is effectively it's bed is 'cruel'.

And it is not just about keeping the house safe. It is about keeping the DOG safe. I guess you have not owned a breed that will gladly eat and swallow anything in it's path? my dog had one intestinal obstruction as a pup that required surgery. If I hadn't crated him, I'm sure he would have visited the operating table more than a few times.

As for an outdoor run, how is that much different than a crate? it is slightly larger, but the principle is exactly the same. If I were to kennel my dog outside he would be miserable and probably bark constantly. Also, not everyone wants/has the space for a huge concrete kennel in their garden for what should be a relatively short period of the dogs life.

Honestly, you are blowing this out of proportion. Just because the dog isn't constantly entertained while the owner is gone doesn't mean that it is a "detriment" to that dog. It an ideal world, every dog would have company every milisecond of the day and would recieve hours of walks a day, but this is the real world. People work. People have to leave their dogs. Dogs cannot be entertained 24/7.

I have to say, being a gundog owner, Labradork's posts make a lot of sense. But we still haven't decided what to do just yet. I'm doing alot of research.

Also, no offence intended at all but as an observation I think it's amusing that we have the guard breeds suggestion an outdoor kennel and the gundog breeds going with the crate. Very breed specific if you look at it like that. ;o)

Hmmm.

Crates can be useful and I agree for short periods (up to max 4 hours) they are fine. But being absolutely honest, unless a dog is totally happy about being left, and has had ample exercise and stimulation (I'm talking at least an hour's free running at some part of the day) I don't agree with using it all day. Part of the day yes, no probs, but not all of it.

And if it is to be used all day the dog must have regular breaks, exercise, company etc. so it's not literally in it all day IYSWIM and that for me is pushing it.

Using it for all of the day simply means that the dog may become "used" to it - it doesn't mean it's right.

Dogs sleep at night for 7 hours (or similar) and we all do that. But do dogs sleep naturally for 7 hours at night and then all day too?



Wys
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A lot of gundog owners who work keep their dogs in runs and kennels and they're often not in the house at all.

Wys
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In your post you did not say anything about a short period of their life. Anyone reading it would have assumed it`s OK to cage a dog in a crate he can`t walk round in all day provided he`s had a walk.
A run and kennel don`t have to be huge or concrete. If your dog is barking he`s probably bored and lonely. Of couse that also applies if he`s in a crate, does it not?

Have you tried crating the other way round as in crated in the afternoon rather than the morning.

We find with Monty that he is more active/mischievous in the afternoon. In the morning he has had interaction with Rich from 6am and then a walk with me from 7am and I leave at 8:15am by which point he's ready for a snooze.

However in the afternoon he's only had half an hour of playtime with me when I'm home on lunch and therefore there is more mess to clear up when I get home in the evening than there is when I get home at lunch.

Might be worth a go?

Nope - you are picking and chosing the pieces you want to discuss because you think it is ok to use a crate longer than i think it is.

A dog shouldn't be constantly entertained and definately needs to learn to be happy by itself..........i was not saying otherwise. I do not agree that in an ideal world a dog would have company every millisecond of the day because that leads to a dog who cannot coap with out seeing their owner and has no confidence in themselves etc etc.

Yes this is the real world, yes people have to work and yes i have a very real active dog, part SBT part Lab, only a year old. There is no way she is not active.

Personally i believe very strongly that dogs shouldn't be left for long periods, especially after owning other people's cast off rescue dogs. Which is why i waited 16 year before getting a puppy and had a 8 year gap without a dog because I knew i could not give a dog what they need which is a good balance of stimulation, company, training, exercise and quiet times. .....which do make a well balanced dog!

I can't speak for anyone else's dog, my dog's past and present have snoozed on and off all day during the day. It is quite normal for a carnivorous animal to sleep throughout the day - they are crespuscular (active at dawn and dusk).

Big difference between a pet and a working gundog. Working dogs are also usually contained in pairs or groups in kennels.

Try sticking a pet dog that has been indoors from day 1 in an outside kennel.