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scarter
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02-10-2009, 07:03 PM

Do Well-Balanced, Nice Dogs attack the weak, unstable or injured?

I made a comment on another thread that nice, stable, well behaved dogs will attack an unstable or weak dog. A couple of people challenged this as that they thought this wouldn't happen.

Rather than take that thread off topic I thought I'd start a new one to expand upon this. I'm not ignoring others that commented but I'll just quote one comment to respond to. The other comments were pretty much the same.

Originally Posted by annajayne
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
Even dogs that are NEVER told off for growling will often attack without warning. And nice, well behaved, stable dogs DO attack weak or unstable dogs - it's instinctive.
Dogs never attack without warning, they give plenty of warning.
BenMcFuzzylugs whole point on the thread where this came up was that the dog attacked Mia WITHOUT WARNING. In this case she believed it was because the owner had trained her not to give a warning growl. LOTS of owners do this - probably most dog owners I come across will tell their dogs off for growling.

I have witnessed several incidents of attacks without warning.

I have a friend who's dog was wonderful until eighteen months old or so. Then, all of a sudden she started attacking dogs without warning - almost always pups and young dogs. They'd be walking past, or playing nearby and she'd just run over and attack. She'd pin it to the ground snarling. At first it was all noise. Then occasionally the victim would have a little nick or a spot of blood somewhere. Finally she consulted a behaviourist when her dog ripped open a young dog's face narrowly missing it's eye - entirely without provocation or warning.

The behaviourists verdict was that the problem was the result of too much socialisation!! Or more accuratly, inappropriate or badly supervised socialisation. My friend always took care to make sure she did the right thing. She took the dog to the park to let it play with other dogs. She'd have friends dogs round for 'playdates'. She even took her dog to doggy daycare two afternoons a week for socialisation. A lot of the playmates were puppies - including some larger breed puppies. Puppies are renowned for being bad mannered and not backing off when told. Because these puppies were bigger than this dog and because she was recieving so much exposure to it she was feeling threatened. She learned that there was no point in warning as it didn't work. So she learned to get in first and attack without warning before they came near her.

My own dog who had never shown any signs of aggression went through a phase where she was attacking without warning. We had been working on off-lead control in a quiet corner of the park on a daily basis. Invariably a dog would come over to see what all the fun was about (invariably a lab after our treats!). These dogs were persistent - you just couldn't get rid of them and their owners had a hard time calling them away. My dog started out giving a little irritated snap (the way dogs do with pals). It didn't work. In time she stepped it up to a growl. It didn't work. Then out of the blue (although I guess in hindsight it was predictable really) she lunged at a dog that came over without warning. She didn't even bother to try telling it to get lost. This happened perhaps half a dozen times before we got to grips with it. She's fine now. She's not an agressive dog and never drew blood, but after what happened with my friends dog I took it very seriously. I suspect that if I'd allowed these incidents to occur she would have escalated to biting.

So just a couple of examples and reasons why a dog will attack without warning. Now of course, you can argue that there would have been subtle signs that we all missed. That's probably the case. But certainly not clear warnings.

I also believe that nice, well behaved, stable dogs do not attack weak or unstable dogs, it's not instinctive, if you study them they are very 'civilised', a lot better than humans in my opinion.
We used to frequently meet up with a big bunch of people and dogs in the park. We'll stand about chatting while the dogs play. They all get on great. However, here are two dogs amongst the regular gang that frequently get bullied. It's always play, but play gone too far and these two dogs will be acting very submissively and clearly feeling uncomfortable. They always come back for more and seem happy in the group but over and over we end up having to break things up. If we don't break things up quickly when one of these dogs starts showing signs of fear or submission the rest of the dogs will snap into pack-like behaviour and all gang up on the weak dog. These are lovely, well raised pet dogs acting like nasty little bullies. This is all breeds - from labs, beagles, poodles...none are above getting involved when it kicks off. It's never got beyond a very unpleasant kind of play because it's always broken up quickly. But I could see it easily getting badly out of hand without supervision. We tend to avoid hanging out with a pack now.

I've asked experts about this and I'm told it's quite normal for packs of dogs to attack the weak, injured or unstable. In fact, I'm told it's one of the reasons why people object to dog walkers taking groups of dogs out and even the situation that we have where a large group of dogs are walked and exercised together. No matter how nice, well trained and well behaved the dogs normally are there's always a risk of them reverting to pack behaviour and attacking and even killing the weak.

Of the two dogs that always seem to be receiving end of rough play and bullying I know one of the owners quite well. This dog has been viciously attacked without warning on more than one occasion. Just recently they were walking down the road with the dog on lead and two staffies came tearing out of a garden and attacked her. The owner had to drag them off and she needed vet treatment.

My observation is that weak and unstable dogs are victims of far more unprovoked attacks than confident, stable dogs.
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Ramble
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02-10-2009, 07:26 PM
I don't eally have time to do your post justice...but my quick observations are that the dogs you describe initially...your own included DO show warning signs and it has been the owners that clearly haven't spotted them.

As for dogs in packs in the park..don't get me started.. Often those dogs are not the best behaved...they often are not listening to their owners and certainly aren't having their owners attention as the owners are generally busy talking.
In terms of dogs 'attacking' in that situations...yes, they do. They do it (IMO) because they are so hyper..their play is allowed to go unchecked for so long and so often that it often tips over into aggression. It is often the more confident dogs...and themost excitable that will tip the scales. The ones that are 'attacked' are generally the quieter, more nervous dogs..or dogs that are not as used to 'playing' with other dogs, perhaps dogs that are the only dog in a household.

Do well balanced dogs attack ill and injured dogs? No. Not without provocation.
My own young dog actually tried to nurse my elderly dog when he was sick,my bitch nursed my young dog after his recent op. So no.
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scarter
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02-10-2009, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by ramble
the dogs you describe initially...your own included DO show warning signs and it has been the owners that clearly haven't spotted them.
Yes, to clarify I think in all of these instances it was an attack waiting to happen and one that us as owners *should* have seen coming and avoided. It's not a lack of care but just a question of inexperience.

But once the damage had been done the attacks were quick, without provocation and without warning. In other words, the dogs didn't growl a warning and then attack when it was ignored - they just attacked. In most of these cases the poor dog that was attacked didn't even see it coming.
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Borderdawn
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02-10-2009, 07:41 PM
Some dogs cannot communicate with other dogs, I had a dog that spoke very good "Dog" he was an amazing dog to be around other dogs of all temperaments, but some dogs just dont understand others and shoot in all guns blazing.

I dont think dogs attack without reason, I do think that "some" will attack another that say is having a fit, its not really weakness as I see it, its something very different to the dog.
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Hali
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02-10-2009, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Some dogs cannot communicate with other dogs, I had a dog that spoke very good "Dog" he was an amazing dog to be around other dogs of all temperaments, but some dogs just dont understand others and shoot in all guns blazing.

I dont think dogs attack without reason, I do think that "some" will attack another that say is having a fit, its not really weakness as I see it, its something very different to the dog.
Pretty much exactly what our behaviourist told us...anything that is not 'normal' dog behaviour can unsettle another dog sufficiently for it to attack. She gave examples of where dogs were going senile and not acting normally (but not aggressively) and the other dog in the house, who had been its closest friend all its life, would start attacking it.
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cordie
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02-10-2009, 07:52 PM
Yes i agree with you entirely, my northern inuit dog dudley, has been bitten several times, by dogs running off leash, he was entirely submissive at all times, nevertheless they still bit him!! i always thought when a dog showed submission it would save him getting attacked but no i was wrong, now however , he lies down on their approach, and if they make a move he springs up and is ready for them, i never let him off leash in public, but i realise now that he isnt submissive anymore, and as he is a big powerful dog , he could hurt other dogs who try it on, i carry a walking stick when i walk him , and i warn dog owners to control their dogs, fortunately most do.
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Annajayne
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02-10-2009, 07:54 PM
Hi Scarter,

Just been reading your post and thinking about my answer.

I firmly believe that dogs DO NOT attack without warning. The signs are subtle, but they are there, other dogs certainly know how to read the signs and we should too.

Warning signs of a dog attack are the dog's body going stiff, hair on their back standing up, tail up very high and stiff. Legs and neck stiff. This is aggression and means the dog might attack, it is not happy. It is subtle though, does not stick out like a sore thumb, you have to look for it. If you can see the whites of the dog's eyes it is very unhappy and means business. Growling and teeth baring mean back off I am giving you the chance to back off. Dog's will also give subtle clues to back off by avoiding eye contact, sniffing the ground to diffuse a situation if this doesn't work it will attack, it has given enough warning. It may seem out of the blue if you see a dog attack that was previously sniffing the ground, but it certainly would have given warning, the signs would have been there. Dog's do not go around attacking out of the blue. When your dog gave irritated snaps it was a warning, there would have been body language too, that you missed.

My dog was attacked recently, not badly, just a lot of bossy, horrible noise. The signs would have been there. We were in a wood, my dog was on the lead and I was looking the other way. The first I noticed anything was wrong I felt my dog lay down when I looked he was submissive and the attacking dog stiff and growling. My dog's submissive body language probably stopped it being a bloody fight. Had I been more vigilant I would have noticed the attacking dog's body language and moved away, I think it would have diffused the situation. I am positive it did not attack out of the blue because my dog laid down submissive, so he read the dog's body language.

The dog's you read about that have attacked at home would have probably been giving warning signs for a long time but the owners cannot read the dog's language and they think it has attacked out of the blue, these dog's have probably had unhappy lives and given warning signs for ages but no one understands. They are then labelled bad dogs and pts. It's sad, they have a language and if they are to live with us we have to learn their language, after all we expect them to learn ours.

This is a long post so I will reply to your other point in another post.
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wildmoor
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02-10-2009, 08:01 PM
I have 1 dog who is mentally scarred by numerous dog attacks (at least 20) whether they sensed he was ill I am unsure. But the dogs doing the attacking were mentally weak, unsupervised allowed to roam free and tended to be males around 8mths to 2yrs all of a nervous temperament, now he is well they give him a wide birth and tend to bark then run away.
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scarter
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02-10-2009, 08:11 PM
Another thing that's popped into my head whilst reading all your comments about dogs reacting to anything abnormal...

My youngest boy gets on fine with other dogs. However, one peculiar thing is that whenever we bump into other dogs the males are VERY interested in sniffing him. They sniff for way too long and he gets uncomfortable about it. He'll often roll onto his back submissively. They keep sniffing and sometimes he'll growl or snap...or when he was younger he'd even whimper if it's a big adult male. We eventually started disallowing it - they could have a quick sniff and then we shoved them away. Our boy really didn't like it. But after the sniffing they'd get on fine.

We thought at first it was because he was neutered, but other neutered males do it to him too. It's nothing more than overly curious and extended sniffing. But only the boys do it to him.

Has anyone come across this?
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MickB
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02-10-2009, 08:16 PM
Really interesting topic!

Human victimology studies tend to show that some people are much more likely to be bullied/assaulted/mugged than others and that this might be the result of a combination of body language and pheromones. As an example, I worked for 37 years as an outreach youth worker - walking the streets of our worst estates, making contact with drug users, criminals, gang members etc etc. In all that time I was never attacked or even threatened once. Some of my colleagues (who didn't last long in the job) were assaulted or threatened weekly - often by the same kids and often in much "safer" surroundings. Maybe there is a similar body language/pheromone mechanism in dogs which triggers attacks from other dogs.

Mick
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