Other trainers and methods pros and cons

As Scarter brought up the idea for this thread.

For other trainers and methods NOT CM here to discuss their training methods.

I personaly dont use just one trainers ideas I pick and choose and basically use positive reward, negative punishment methods
Honestly the only downside in the method that I can see is if you just dont have the imagination to figure out how to make what you want rewarding to the dog.

I am also a huge fan of Slyvia Trkman although people might be tempted to overtrain puppies with her methods - she does build up slowly but it might not look that way to some.
I love her ideas about it dosent matter what you are training, the most important part of trick training is just to train the dog to think and like working with you

I love Ian Dunbar although I am not sure I agree with everything he thinks about pack structure I love 'if punishment dosent have to be harsh to be effective then why should it?'

Susan Garrett is good for agility although I prefer to take more time training things like weaves - her method does seem to work

Leslie McDevitt's 'control unleashed' has helped me lots with Mia, I dont agree with every word but I like how she makes the handles mindset change from 'Oh no here comes a big scary dog' to 'Cool we get the chance to play that dog in your face game'

and I know there are lots more
I have just got calming signals

Havent really found any pitfalls

Would love to hear your views

Just wanted to add that the reason I dont see any pitfalls with these methods is because even if I dont agree with the thinking behind why the method works the method itself is kind and fair to dogs and makes it clear what is expected from them

I wouldnt care if a trainer came along saying he was the big Alpha and all his dogs thought he was - just so long as his methods were kind and fair - dogs dont care what we think they are thinking

I have taken bits from various trainers throughout the years and adapted them to my needs.

John Fisher, John Rogerson, Dee Ganley, Attila Skukalik, Jo Hill stand out. I have been on lots of courses and to lots of seminars but the overriding theme has been reward based training and consideration for the dog in more than just a physical sense.

I haven't found a dog who doesn't respond but sometimes it takes longer than people are prepared to spend building up trust----hence the use of other harsher methods.

I love food circuits and I love the clicker.

rune

All of the training classes I've been to focus on teaching the dog tricks. For example, sit, down, stand, wait, come and so on. With my Beagles this is very easy - I don't really need lessons for that as they're so food obsessed that they are very eager students.

But where exactly does this get you? You end up with a dog that can do a whole bunch of tricks but still develops little antisocial habits or problem behaviours.

Most people I know have taken their dogs to obedience classes. Most people I know have dogs that can do all the 'tricks' but the owners still have to work around various problems. Anything from the dog jumping all over people, refusing to come when called, escaping from the garden, resource guarding - the list is endless. Generally speaking people just accept that "that's dogs for you" (much like the owners of the dog in Marley and Me).

According to many sources Beagles are in the top 10 hardest dogs to train. Labs are one of the easiest. Yet go to my local park and you'll find that the few beagles there are generally better at the 'tricks' than most of the labs. Yet despite their disobedience the labs tend to be harmless and not get themselves into too much trouble. They stay fairly close to their owners and at worst pester other park users for treats. The 'better trained' beagles on the other hand can really run amok - a friends beagle was actually killed recently when it squeezed through two fences and a hedge in the park to be killed on a railway line. So what's my point with this.... Well, it's a huge generalisation, I know. But if you have a so called 'easy-to-train' breed such as a lab you really can get away without any training - the dog is genetically predisposed to please you so you don't really need to work to hard at it. It's not the end of the world if your dog doesn't understand sit, stand, wait etc. But what if you have a more difficult breed? Does the dog's ability to sit, stand, wait etc on command (most of the time/some of the time) really help matters much? In my experience I'd say no. We've put a tremendous amount of work into training our beagles and they can do a lot. But when it comes to the crunch they are no better than Beagle friends that have never had a day's training in their lives!!

I'd say that a big downfall with obedience classes is that they don't help you to have a better adjusted, better behaved dog. They teach you a few tricks that *might* make your dog a bit easier to manage in some situations. But they don't address what I think is the most important thing - the relationship between dog and owner. Some people, either through luck or a special tallent, get this right instinctively. I'm sure we all know of people that haven't the first clue about dog training and have never been to a class. Their dogs don't know any 'tricks' yet they are perfectly behaved and wonderfully obedient. But most of us need to be taught how to behave around our dogs and (apart from Ceasar Millan) trainers seem to completely disregard this important aspect.

I've been told by trainers that the reason that only rewards based methods are taught is because it's easy for the average dog owner to understand. I've been told by a canine behaviourist that dog trainers are trained to only teach methods that the average dog owner can't do any harm with (So not necesarily the best techniques, but techniques that it's hard to get wrong). In her words, they teach stuff that's usefull with some dogs but wholly inadequate with others. This is all well and good...IF the trainers come clean about this. But they don't. They teach students that rewards based methods are the only methods that should be used. Period. So if you happen to have one of these dogs for which standard 'training class' methods aren't adequate you have no way of knowing that really you need to get professional help. You keep plugging away with basic rewards based method whilst your dog's problems get more and more deeply engrained. And these methods CAN go badly wrong. It's all too easy to end up pandering to a stroppy little dog that's got you sussed and is just taking liberties. This can lead to a lot of suffering for the dog in the long run.

I'm not against positive, rewards based training methods. Far from it. It's a great tool. But I think it's harmful to present it as 'the answer' when it only addresses a small part of the problem.

One book that I've found very helpful is called "When Pigs Fly". It's aimed at dogs that aren't genetically predisposed to please their owners (often described as stupid, stuborn or untrainable) recommends only positive, reward based methods but unlike many the main focus is on how to go about establishing the right relationship with the dog. The rewards and trick training are just one tool in the toolbox.

Hi,

I agree with much of what you've both said. I'm not a trainer myself (although woudl love to be) but I have read many training books, some newer more modern techniques and ones that are much older with techniques I'd never use.

However, I disagree with the point that basic obedience doesn't really mean a lot or make much difference. A while ago, my oldest GSD, Zane (now 21 months old) ran out of the front door after a squirrel (I think) across the road. I live ona very busy road and shouted at him to go down. He did so immediately. I am convinved that without me taking him to basic obedience training or doing training with him at home, I wouldn't have known what to do, he wouldn't have reacted in that way and could very likely have been run over and killed. So for me, that basic obedience saved his life.

I do agree though with you about the reward based training and certain people may end up with dogs that throw tantrums and take the p***. It's a shame that those owners don't knwo enough to alter their methods in order to continue further with training without spoling their dogs.

I've been taught also to use positive reward based methods and more recently, clicker training. 2 out of the 4 dogs I have respond very well to clicker training but I have to think outside the box sometimes for the other 2.

I too ahve also used treats (chees, liver cake, sausage etc) when my dogs do as I ask but not all the time. Sometimes the reward will be a short play with a favourite toy, or for Zane particularly having his ears rubbed in a certain way is now mor erewarding for him than anything else.

I think I'm trying to make the point that the rewards don't always have to involve something edible. This could reduce a little those fussy dogs that end up with more problems than their owners could imagine.

I think you do have a point though about trainers at the moment not informing people of any other way of training their dogs. A man at the training club I take my dogs to on a Tuesday night has paid a "behaviourist" £160 to spend about 20 minutes talking to him about his dog (he didn't meet the dog), gave him something printed from the internet and told him his dog couldn't be helped and to walk him up and down the garden only, on lead and treat him if he doesn't bark at anything.
The dog is a rescue Boxer and hasn't been socialised properly. So in his own back garden he has nothing to bark at! Some people!

Laura xx

Is it encumbant on the trainer to suggest every method (even if they don't agree with them) or is it the responsibility of the owner to look into different classes/methods?

Personally I think the owners should take some responsibility and choose the system that they feel suits them and their dog.

Tricks only work in all situations if you practice them in all situations, it always amazes me how much dogs learn in an hour a week!

You are right, the rewards only work if there is trust and respect between dog and owner and it is easy to lose that trust simply by not understanding 'dog' and only working in 'human'.

rune

My trainers that i admire & learn from are all obedience trainers, so probaley dont mean much to you all.

But: Pat & Herbie Watson, & to a lesser Extent Steph woolam (mainley PAT though really by far)have formed the basis for how i train,

Then other bits ive taken from, lyn Green & Kay Raven & kamal Fernandaz. & as im going on a Kathy Ingam Course in January, i will Probaly add her here too

I guess im lucky really because week in & week out i am watching & talking to people train their dogs. Im always asking "why? do you do that" other influences in this way, Jane Moran & Michaela Platt, susanne Jaffa, Linda Rutherford, Lorraine Bennet & Jenny Lunn, Mainly i just like to watch & Observe

Other Influences along the way have been Books by Angela White, Sylvia Bishop,Bron Bartley & Brian Mcgovan & Mary Rays Videos.


All jumbled up & cherry pic what works for my dogs!

My Methods are mainly

1. Confidence. Dog has utmost Confidence in handler & alot of confidence in its self

2. Play, i like to use Play as a reward & motivator. I like Susan Garrats Play Drive training its fab

3. Food , i like to use food to "teach", to back track, to mark, & at times to lower the dog (if its got too high)to enable it to think.

4.operant Conditioning. I use a clicker with pups & then move it on to a clicker word once i start training properally in some exercises. For me i find a clicker abit too unemotional (which is what some people love about it) & my clicker words DO mean something rather than "ping" mine are "GOOD" & i have a half way word "lovely"

5.My dogs i want, fast ,expressive , to work with drive & Hopefully abit of style. & most of all to be really happy to work & WANT to do it!!!!

I don't think there is one trainer who has totally shaped how I feel and what I think about dog training. It has been a gradual process..shaped by watching dogs and people interact and by reading and by having my own dogs. The trainers who have influenced my thoughts have been both good and bad...professional (by that I mean it is their full time job) and 'casual'. I can't pinpoint any one or two people that have shaped my philosophy though.

In terms of big names trainers...Turid Rugaas has to be up there. As I am sure i have mentioned on here before. I like her approach as it shows an understanding of a dog as just that....a dog. I'm not too into tricks and obedience work etc..so it all fits well for me.
I also had the pleasure of attending a seminar with Sarah Fisher...again a big name...but similar to Turid...

Not sure if I've got you right, but you are talking about obedience classes indoors and dogs not doing recall etc outdoors?

As a trainer myself, I explain to people that dogs do not generalise well - and so whilst I give them the tools, they themselves need to do training most days, and to go from quiet areas, perfect the training there, then go to slightly busier areas, (maybe outside), then again areas with more distractions, and so on. About the only thing a dog does generalise well is aggression, unfortunately!

Agree this is the most important thing . However, good pet dog training classes should not be all about "obedience" competition style. It does need to cement the relationship and this can be done with, yes obedience but also making it fun and enjoyable - play training is very important for building up relationships for instance. Going round and round a hall like the old clubs may suggest, doesn't...
It shouldn't happen like this. Most dog trainers including myself would help or else suggest a one to one, if asked.
Also surely it has to be down to the owner to ask about more help etc?
We are moving from the realm of training into behavior problems perhaps, too. If you asked a behaviourist for help, they'd give advice tailored to owner/breed/situation etc and it should prove helpful
But I agree that pet owners don't always find it easy to find out about help.

Agree with you about When Pigs Fly, it is an excellent book.

This is a good site - gives advice about relationships and other various bits of good info:

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/table/behaviour-training/

Wys
x

Me too - I usually find something of use in every book or workshop. I think it would be difficult to totally endorse any trainer for all circumstances because every dog, owner and situation is unique.
We`re not good with clickers for example because Daisy isn`t really interested in food rewards and my approach isn`t very structured. This doesn`t mean clicker training isn`t brill, or that we`re rubbish- it just means other methods are better for us.
I love trainers who have an open and flexible approach. I had a workshop recently with a couple of top WT peeps. The guy said he really enjoyed working with all the different dogs/ owners because he had to puzzle out the best approach to each of their difficulties.

The basis for each good trainer I`ve read or been to has always been to motivate the dog to do what you want. And to make the dog feel good about doing it. This pleasure is what keeps the dog on track.
I find Jean Donaldson`s approach excellent for basics, and Barbara Sykes helpful for aggression.